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Tell me, is this "false doctrine?" In keeping with the directive to "be ye therefore immitators of Christ" and with the call to "let your 'yes' be yes" and with the example of GOD the Father who says, "My covenant I will not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips." (Psalm 89) and GOD the Father who says, "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel had committed adultery I had put her away and given her a bill of divorce; (Jeremiah 3, vs 8 ) "Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause my anger to fall upon you" (Jeremiah 3, vs 12 ) "Turn, O backsliding , saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you..." (Jeremiah 3, vs 14 ) [He divorced her, then HE remained faithful - calling himself her "husband" even AFTER the divorce! "For I am married unto you"] And Jesus (Yeshua) who DID remain faithful to us all even to the point of death upon the cross - asking from his heart of flesh that the cup be taken from him by the Father if at all possible, yet yielding to that which would honor the Father most - being the cross itself For despite all our 'adultery' against Him, we are still the Bride He will one day take - he will not seek another - for His promises endure forever! in light of all of the above, is it "false doctrine" to claim that our responsibility in ALL things - including our marriage covenants - is to walk in honor and faithfulness to our own promises and to that which will most honor the Father and immitate our LORD Jesus? There is no condemnation from me should one NOT walk this way, but I see no doctrine here that contradicts ANYTHING scriptural - in fact, though painful and very difficult to receive in some instances - this is EXACTLY the doctrine of Christ's life AND DEATH!!!! and we are called to live AND DIE (to ourselves and our flesh) accordingly - with this in mind - I believe and hold as conviction that a Christian is bound to their marriage covenant for exactly how long it is intended - "until death do us part" - or in another example "for as long as we both shall live" therefore, if one should die, the other is 'free' to remarry - having fulfilled the covenant requirements unto faithfulness wherein they promised to "forsake all others" and to maintain that covenant no matter what - "in sickness and in health" "for richer or poorer" "for better or worse" if you promised it - you are to keep that promise no matter what the other party does or doesn't do - for the one we are to model ourselves after, GOD Almighty - does just that - and He has even gone a step further, by having His only do that as well - and He has taken ANOTHER step further as well - in granting unto us EXACTLY what we will need to walk in this manner: HIS GRACE!!! (for we certainly couldn't do it from our own puny spiritual strength!) for we are told that His Grace is sufficient - for ALL our needs! now - if one who reads this should find anything about it to be a "false doctrine," I invite you freely to enter this discussion and help me to see how and why you believe it to be "false" - I will caution you all, however, that disagreeing with this because of what it would mean for your own situation is not grounds for calling it "false" - so do not attempt to argue it or defend your own position from that vantage point - the "truth" or "falseness" of doctrine is never dependent upon our circumstances - but rather upon the Word of GOD - the examples within Sripture - the ministry of the Holy Spirit, and the recipient of glory from its application. I invite you all to pray over this matter - seek the LORD and HIS wisdom in these things - gird yourself with His armour as you wrestle with the will of the flesh, and then please get back to me - I can promise you this - you will not be banned for disagreeing with me - if you use profanity or become nasty or vulgar - that is another story - but should you become heated or firm in your presentation - no, I will not ban you - for that is not grace. In fact, it is likely that I and all others will learn from those who are in fact passionate about this subject - and that is what I want - I wish to know Truth - and to live it - and to honor GOD in both my life and my death - physical, spiritual, emotional - I am to serve at HIS pleasure - not my own - and I am looking forward to your comments. Sincerely, Frances |
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with this in mind - I believe and hold as conviction that a Christian is bound to their marriage covenant for exactly how long it is intended - "until death do us part" - or in another example "for as long as we both shall live" That is truly the ideal, but you are neglecting the Scriptures where divorce is permissable for us fallible human beings. Your censure is too strict to be helpful many of God's children
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4/30/2006 5:57 pm |
So if my ex-wife dies, accidentally of course, I would have a chance with the pretty Frances. Interesting.  Let me ask you two questions: 1. What if you were not a Christian when you got married or divorced? 2. Why would we have the permission to divorce in the first place if it were not for allowing us to remarry? Biblically permitted divorce makes no logical sense unless it frees someone to remarry!
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4/30/2006 6:54 pm |
Hmmm I am wondering from which point of view u are speaking. A man? A lady? Tv? Cd? etc
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CaringinAction, I do not believe that I have ever stated directly or implied that I was not a sinner - nor that I have more grace than others - or that I demostrate and extend more grace than others - as for the thought that I maybe shouldn't talk to you, you might be right - but it wouldn't be because you are a "sinner" as you use the term, for we are all sinners - and if your concept were to be applied as Truth then NONE of us could talk amoung ourselves - but you might be right in that I shouldn't talk to you because you are sinning in how you are responding - it is a present tense sin - and you are doing it from spite (?) maybe? could you instead answer the question that I posted? Do you read anything "false" in what I have presented? I would be interested in your commentary on that topic - otherwise, it seems that you believe I do not understand what grace is in regard to sin - and that may be true on some levels - perhaps that would be a good topic for an upcoming post - but for now I am asking about our call to remain faithful to our covenants no matter what is done to or against us - could you tell me if you see any sort of "false doctrine" being presented from my opening post above? Thank you - Frances
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Oh - I didn't mean to leave you two out! Davidsmightymen - thank you for your presence here - I really enjoy your input! You are indeed correct in that I am speaking about Christians who have entered into a marital covenant - like yourself, I have never married - although I hope to not be able to say that forever! but this status does not preclude me having an understanding of GOD's Truth in this area - in fact - it is MORE PROBABLE that GOD's will is that ALL single people know these truths before every getting married! I know that it is a hard Word for many - but Jesus told us that to follow Him would be "difficult" - and perhaps that was an understatement for some - however, the difficulty of remaining faithful to your marriage covenant just seems to pale in comparison to the difficulty of the cross - Thanks for stopping by - come back sometime- Gismo - you have brought up some really good points that I hadn't even touched on - but they are sooooooo important in this area of discussion! I am thrilled that you decided to visit my blog and post these things - especially the comment related to a faithful spouse possibly winning the faithfless partner back! This is a wonderful reason to remain committed no matter what - for as long as both parties are single, there is room for GOD's arm of reconciliation! but should either party remarry - that is over and done with - and that person has basically told God "NO!" even still, we are to remain faithful to what we have promised - and it is so very hard - for it is a death to our desire for human marriage that we are to sacrifice, believing instead that despite the lonliness and longings GOD's marvelous grace is sufficient for our needs - yes - this is easier to type than to live - and I think that we should pray for one another that we are able to stand when called to do so- thank you both again - Frances
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you are a gracious woman of God and may He continue to work on your understandings
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5/1/2006 6:49 am |
Marriage was instituted by God in the book of Genesis for the human race. It is not a Christian institution. Therefore, if someone has got divorced before they became a Christian they are not free to remarry.
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Steve (Godlycook) I really do appreciate your thoughtful manner in approaching things of scripture - but we should use the same thoughtful manner when approaching things in all areas of life - and again I do not think that you have done that with my blog - I will AGAIN state that I have NEVER said that there are no grounds for divorce - what I believe there to be no Biblical grounds for is REMARRIAGE after divorce as long as your spouse lives! there are 2 different issues here that can very easily become confued if one does not open their eyes - divorce AND remarriage - my position is POST divorce - my understanding is that there ARE indeed causes for divorce - and we see that in Jeremiah wherein the LORD divorced faithless Israel - what we DON'T see is REMARRIAGE as something permitted - but rather reconciliation - TeaKitty - I am so sorry that you suffered as you did at the hands of someone you loved and had committed yourself to for life, but I most certainly disagree with your statement wherein you write: "I do not expect that God would care about a vow, more than he cares about my safety, and my LIFE. " for isn't that exactly what He cared more about with our LORD and Saviour? - Isn't that exactly what GOD cared more about than the life of HIS OWN SON??? and you think you are different or above that same position in GOD's eyes? This is EXACTLY why there are problems in the Church! you need to be willing to LOSE your very life unto the call of a daughter of the KING! yet we are not interested in that - we want to "save" our lives from the pain and hurt that is a fixed portion of immitation of our LORD - Edjehu - your post brought forth tears and a smile that was only there because of the ministry of the Spirit through you to me! I know what you are saying - and I can't even begin to imagine how the LORD has already worked through all of this! - for He is STILL working through it! Praise GOD!!! I have never been so humbled in my heart as when I read your last line, "As of this hour you are now in my fourth-watch prayers and remain so until we meet at the marriage supper of the Lamb." I have no words - but the Spirit will share my heart with you. Frances
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Kris, I do not feel either weary or frustrated on your account - and I receive that brotherly hug from you - I need it! I know that we do not see eye to eye on this issue, and that we could likely go on and on about why we each believe what we believe, quoting scripture back and forth - would that be wisdom between you and I? - Maybe so - for maybe we would come to understand something through that exercise that we had not previously considered - I can say this - ALL of scripture attests to our example for life being first demonstrated by the Father and then by His Son - and there is a resounding theme of Faithfullness throughout! we are called to that - and we have been equipped for that - even though we don't like the task or the tool granted - for neither serves to satisfy our desires - yet that is not what our focus should be anyway - for you see the task is to walk as Christ did -in total obedience and faithfulness to the Father - and the Tool is GOD's grace - through Yeshua's death and resurrection for our sins - and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of GOD! we have all that we need to walk in the same manner that He walked - but we usually don't because doing so doesn't satisfy our flesh and/or our desires - but it DOES honor the LORD! walking as He walked honors HIM - glorifies HIM - exalts HIM!!!! that is why we are here, isn't it? - for HIS pleasure? if we are blessed with pleasure of our own, how marvelous! But nowhere are we promised that our lives will be without sacrifice of self - who are we to expect to be able to walk above the calling of the very Son of GOD? for even HE was called to die to his flesh - it is a hard and difficult walk - it is a hard and difficult Truth - but it is right - I do not understand how you can hold such a strong conviction about remaining faithful to the status of parent yet not equally hold firm to a conviction about the covenant of marriage? it does not make sense to me? for the marriage is given by GOD "BEFORE" the children - so the covenant of marriage should be esteemed FIRST - with priority - as I understand it - besides, we are told to "train up a child in the way he should go" what way should a child go in this world? what does remarriage show a child about your promise to their other parent? yes - I know that several will want to respond with what their spouse did that certainly would have been a terrible "lesson" for the children - but that doesn't mean that you, too, are also "permitted" to set the wring example - but in fact it will most often mean that you are left with an even greater charge to set the RIGHT example - and it is NOT fair - but nothing about this life or the eternal life to come is fair - is it? Just as you, Kris, are not wanting me to experience any frustration from your post, I hope you oalso do not receive any from mine - you are a brother to me in the LORD - and I want for us to live in a manner that honors our Father - I want us to live like our Firstborn Brother and LORD Jesus lived when he was here in the flesh - Sincerely, Frances
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5/1/2006 10:03 pm |
Frances thank you for standing strong in the Word. I agree with what you have written here, including your later comments on allowing divorce and remarriage. This is about the ideal, and isn't the ideal what we should be striving for? But it will cost us and I think as with any sin, counting the cost is not an easy choice especially if you have many supporters for your stand, so you don't have to. There comes a time when every Christian has to sit down and consider have I or can I honestly say to God, "Yes I want your will to be done in my life whatever the cost. If it means I remain single I will praise you. Not my will be done but thine." That's not being holier than thou, or self-righteousness, or pretending that you are sin free; as I see it, it is simply loving Jesus with all your heart, mind and soul as He asked (Matt 22: 37-3  ; denying self and taking up your cross, which He says is a pre-requisite for following Him (Matt 16: 24-25); and being willing to die to ourselves in order for the harvest to be great (John 12: 24-26).I don't condemn those who have divorced and remarried as I have members of my family in that category and believe it is between them and God. I feel confident though that it is not a choice I would make if I had been in that position because I want the ideal. God bless!
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5/2/2006 5:26 am |
I don't have children, why should I sit by myself? How can you say what your saying, no one seems to agree with you? You've never been divorced or even married I gather. I hope divorce never happens to you.
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Yes - I hope divorce never happens to me as well, Skeptical - but as for me saying what I am saying and yet no one seems to agree with me? - What concern is it to me if others agree with me? This isn't about what I believe, Skeptical - it is about that which WE ALL are called to do as honor unto our Father - it is about us living and walking in agreement with HIM - HE is faithful in ALL things - HE has equipped us to walk as HE walked through the indwelling Holy Spirit - WE have no excuse - nor do we have "exception clauses" for disobedience and selfish pursuits - it is a VERY hard and difficult Word to receive - but we are not to base our decision to believe something upon the ease of application - but rather the Glory of GOD - all will not be able to receive and accept this Word - I more than understand that - but that doesn't make the Word any less True - just like Salvation - You are right - I have never been married or divorced - which is one of many reasons that I Praise GOD that HE has shown my spirit these things NOW! For how much better to know and accept and understand this NOW, BEFORE I ever marry - than to have to come to a place of acknowledgment possibly AFTER a divorce had happened? It is why it is so difficult a thing for many here on this site to accept - but that is the LORD's battle - I continue to present that which I know to be Truth as my spirit received testimony from the Holy Spirit and through Scripture to thie end - but I will never concern myself with others agreement or disagreement with ME - for at least I know the difference now of disagreeing with ME and disagreeing with GOD! You disagree with GOD - not with me - and I am so sorry for you that this is so difficult - but the Cross was difficult to our LORD - who are we to expect anything less? Sincerely, Frances
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Casturcares - you are very courageous in the LORD to come forward in a public manner and offer your agreement to this very hard Word of Truth! How I pray you are richly blessed for your willing spirit! for how HE is glorified! Sincerely, Frances
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There is time to throw the stones and time to pick them up.... I married in world, far from Christ a man who least cared for believes. I found Christ and never left my husband needer was un loyal to him. I criticized people who divorced and remarried holding so strong on the Word till dead do as apart... My husband found a young chick after 17 years of our marriage. He comes from culture where divorce is not permitted at all in any case. I did not leave him, instead kept praying to things become better, it was going like that for one year, till he finally left me and his 4 kids. It was a mighty chock for every one. We divorced. I am not a could woman. I never turned my back to him. I kept my home in order, I did not mess around. I was dedicated to my marriage and life together with him. Devil has come to destroy, he goes around like roaring lion to find someone to swallow. Time came to me to pick my stones... God knows weather I am worthy in His eyes to remarry or to have a father for my kids, Its left to see, but if someone remarries or is forced to divorce, I will not trow any stone anymore to anyone! I have come that you may have life, and have it abundantly.
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5/2/2006 2:14 pm |
Frances, Please excuse me for intruding on your post with this. It does pertain to what you are writing of. But to a degree in which this has not been discussed. I suppose I may be a bit confused or led differently about this than most, I don't know. I've never been married or had children. But I have sinned in my life and need Jesus from moment to moment. When speaking against divorce and the sin of adultery (Matthew 19:3-6), Jesus quoted Genesis 2:24 and said that what God has fused together, no one should try to sever. But who is it that God declares to be so inextricably joined? Is it only those who have had a church wedding? The Bible never even speaks of a church wedding. The Old Testament prescribes sacred rites for the birth of a child, for determining marital unfaithfulness, even regulations for cleansing after sexual relations, but nothing for a marriage ceremony. In the words of the Wycliffe Bible Encyclopedia “ . . . marriage was a purely civil contract, not formalized by any religious ceremony.” So what is it that creates this bond ‒ the two becoming one ‒ that Jesus declared no one should rip apart? Does an official piece of paper cause this bond? A solemn ceremony? No. The bond that no one should break is created by the most intimate of human commitments. Scripture reveals that a single act of sexual intercourse ‒ no matter how brief or superficial ‒ makes two people one in God’s sight. 1 Corinthians 6:15 "Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! (16) Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, “The two will become one flesh.” This critical piece fits the jigsaw. Adam and Eve experienced this special union, and yet there would have been virtually no similarity between their ‘wedding’ and modern Western weddings or legal arrangements. What God saw as binding was the act of intercourse itself. If we are to have God’s attitude, the act of sex should therefore be as binding as marriage and should be associated with lifelong commitment. This, too, fits what we saw in the Old Testament, that an unmarried man who seduces an unmarried girl is compelled by law to marry her. If there is doubt that she consented to the act, the woman has the right of refusal, but because he initiated sexual union the man loses all rights to choose independence. He is bound to her through a single sexual act. I guess what I'm trying to say here is what is really pure and right in God's eyes? I see you have focused on the covenant of marriage. But I pray that we all as Christians look deeper, before we judge one another. If the act of sexual intercourse is in fact binding in God's eyes as a marriage covenant, then what do we all do??? I doubt that any of us can fully get our head around it, but divine revelation exposes the frightening fact that sex affects us so deeply that when indulged in outside of a holy covenant of lifelong commitment, the result is uniquely damaging. 1 Corinthians 6:18 "Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body." We puzzle over the mystery this verse hides, because it is obvious that other sins can grossly affect the body. Elsewhere the writer himself acknowledges that the profound way sex affects the body ‒ making two people one flesh ‒ is a mystery. Ephesians 5: 31 “ . . . and the two will become one flesh.” (32) This is a profound mystery . . . " And God is not talking merely about sexual intercourse. In his eyes, unmarried couples can sin sexually without ever getting close to what the world regards as “going all the way.” We know from our own feelings that what bonds two people together is not primarily the positioning of body parts, but the sharing of sexual pleasure. The notion that only sexual intercourse is sinful is so far off course, that in reality, most sexual sin occurs between strangers who never even touch. Jesus brought to this sin-ravished planet the startling revelation that even looking sexually at a stranger is a sexual offense as serious as adultery or fornication. The morality by which God will judge us is so much more sophisticated than that of western society that many of us cannot even grasp the concept. So in God's eyes, as Jesus has taught us, even the thought is a sin against God... I am not sure I know of one who has never even thought such things. My point is more in that we are all unworthy in this area in the site of God. I am reminded of the Samaritan Woman who had several "husbands" What did Jesus mean when He said to her "Go, call your husband, and come here." The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her "You have well said, 'I have no husband', "for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; in that you spoke truly." Was Jesus contradicting Himself? In Luke Jesus forgave a sinful woman in the house of a Pharisee. I just get a different feel about all of this than the standard, can or can't we remarry after divorce? And is divorce a sin in the eyes of God. To me it goes so much beyond this in His eyes. Yet if we let Him, God will wipe out our previous offenses, making us pure again. In the eyes of the most morally sensitive person in the universe, we can be a virgin again. No matter what has happened, our past can be wiped, making us spotlessly pure. Although humanly impossible, we are fervently loved by a supernatural God whose enormous yearning to restore our pure state has driven Him to spare nothing to bring this about. The Holy Lord loves you so passionately that he longs to become spiritually one with you. But nothing pure can become one with the impure, without becoming impure itself. Many Moslem women believe that voluntary sex outside of marriage is a sin worthy of death. In the final analysis, however, even the nicest people alive have done things worthy of death. We can easily lower our moral standards to excuse our offenses, but to lower moral standards is to corrupt oneself, and God, our Judge, cannot do that. Virgin or not, the cold reality is that the debt each of us owe justice is death. Jesus, however, was so different to the rest of humanity that he was worthy not of death but of the highest honor, and yet he allowed himself to suffer as if he deserved the most horrible death. Not even a girl who has always had an intact hymen is sinless. So if you let him, Jesus will make you so sparklingly clean that alongside the dazzling brilliance of the purity He gives you, even the most innocent of virgins looks shabby. Jesus Christ has gone to inconceivable lengths to ensure that all that remains for his sinlessness to genuinely be yours is for you to respond by wanting it. This desire on your part is critical because morality is based on choice ‒ choosing to do what is right (our will). Not even someone with infinite power could choose for you against your will and it still genuinely be your choice. You cannot look back with fond memories of illicit ‘pleasures.’ You might not be able to wipe from your mind memories of past pleasure but you can sincerely wish your sins (be they sexual or nonsexual) had never happened. And you can decide to commit yourself to life-long purity from that point on. Having enormous willpower is not the issue; what is needed is simply our desire for God to give us the spiritual strength to never again violate the purposes of God. Like accepting a marriage proposal, our willingness to commit ourself to living a new life with Jesus completes the chain of events created by Christ’s suffering for our sins, enabling the Judge of all humanity to proclaim us pure. We are under Grace my Sister, not the law. Jesus died so that we all might be able to be with Him. I am reminded of something the scriptures once taught my heart in regards to, if we break just one commandment or law, it is like breaking them all. The Bible makes it clear that throughout history God was planning the Messiah’s family tree. He chose a virgin to give birth to the Eternal Son of God. And to demonstrate that he restores virginity, he chose women with shady pasts to be the Holy One’s ancestresses. The Gospel of Matthew deliberately emphasizes the history of sexual impurity in Jesus’ ancestry. In those days a genealogy would not normally mention a woman, and yet Matthew does this several times, and each time it is to highlight an irregularity. When Ruth married, she was a widow, not a virgin, and she came from an ungodly background. Rahab came from a tribe so depraved that every one of them was worthy of death. And even among them, she was a harlot. Tamar had had two previous husbands and pretended to be a prostitute in order to trick her father-in-law into having sex with her to conceive an ancestor of the Messiah. Solomon’s mother conceived while having an extra-marital affair. In every case, their shame occurred before God honored them by making them, alongside the virgin Mary, ancestresses of the Messiah. The majestic Lord delights in exalting the very people whom the self-righteous look down on. If, after God has forgiven us, we won’t forgive ourselves, we are implying we have a higher sense of justice than the Holy One. Anyone having the impertinence to make such an accusation is on dangerous ground. We are also implying that Jesus is inadequate - that he didn’t suffer enough for our sins, or that his sinlessness cannot swallow up our sinfulness. There is no shame in a forgiven person feeling guilty. That is simply the Deceiver at work. For a forgiven person to believe he or she is guilty, however, is a concern. To the Hebrew mind, you could travel east forever and never touch west. You were once in your sin. It was once part of you. But now, God has placed an infinite distance between you and your sins. The memory might still be with you, but the sin itself is no where to be found. . . . search will be made for Israel’s guilt, but there will be none, and for the sins of Judah, but none will be found, for I will forgive . . . (Jeremiah 50:20) God bless you Sister. I hope you will not take offense to what I have replied with here. I searched a lot of places to piece together this truth, so I hope you will consider it in your heart. I respect your passionate love and obedience to God. Please don't think otherwise. I am just in hopes that we all can have Faith in His promises to us. And give Him Glory that He has risen and within us, the truth within our hearts does set us free. Angeni
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5/2/2006 4:12 pm |
Angeni has some very thoroughly thought out statements here. Let me see if I can add anything. Seems like what's got people's ire up is making the mistake of equating not having permission to remarry with not being forgiven. They're simply not the same thing. Jesus' teachings on divorce and remarriage are pretty clear; they include what is expected of us as Christians, and also what rules apply between us and non-Christians as well. (Lots of references to them in other blogs on the site; no need to repeat here.) Old Testament folks didn't have Jesus' specific teachings, so they lived by a different set of rules than we live by today. Flagrant sinners included in Jesus genealogy? Not a problem: the list includes numerous pagans who did not know God, and who were later saved by their faith. These people were not under God's covenants before encountering Him. God is going to use whom God is going to use. Since these people didn't have many of the specific teachings that we have today, we need to interpret the chronicles of their lives using the lens of history; the cultures and covenants under which they were living. For example, was Bathsheba held blameless in her immoral relations with David? I should say so. She was coerced by the king; his word was law. But he was certainly not held blameless. And besides being great sin, it cost his earthly legacy dearly, in many ways. And this brings us back around to the subject of a permission denied not being the same thing as being unforgiven. David's sins were forgiven, yet he was still denied the privilege of constructing the first temple. That honor passed to Solomon (curious how Solomon turned out later on; different story; no, wait: continuation of the same story; whatever). And, obviously, today, folks who aren't Christians don't answer to our covenant, and can't be held accountable to it. If we wished to wed someone with a colorful history who has repented and become Christian, then I suppose we're at liberty to do so; I think we're hard pressed to find scripture that would prohibit such a thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this. Now, as far as marrying a Christian who is divorced from another Christian, and not for reasons of (the other's) unfaithfulness, the answer is no. food for thought -rjb
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5/2/2006 4:44 pm |
And as far as the attempt on TeaKitty's life goes, seems like pretty good grounds for divorce to me. Sounds like a husband who, rather than initiating a divorce himself, opted for another plan instead. I'd accept someone trying to murder me as a divorce notification without the accompanying official government paperwork; wouldn't get too worked up about being outside Jesus' teachings if I'm the one who actually had to step up and initiate the legal proceedings at some later date. -rjb
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5/2/2006 7:25 pm |
Wright1, you seem outnumbered, I always feel for the underdog. So you will have a better understanding of God’s word, and at the same time answer some of your questions, I will humbly tried to bring to you the scriptures associated with divorce. Bible quotes are from New American Bible at biblegate.com. Not my bible, but it is easier to cut and paste then type. [Commentary] First the authorization of marriage by God. Gen. 1:28 And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Gen. 2: 22‒24 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.23 The man said, This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." 24 For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh. [Commentary] How did God view divorce? Malachi. 2:15-16 15 " But not one has done so who has a remnant of the Spirit And what did that one do while he was seeking a godly offspring? Take heed then to your spirit, and let no one deal treacherously against the wife of your youth. 16 "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously." Mt. 19:3-12 3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4 And he answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? 6" So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9 "And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." Mark 10: 10-12 10 In the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery. MT 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 1 Cor 6 9-11 9 do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Mt 7 21‒23 21 Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS [Commentary] Spiritually, divorce is a serious issue, and grace is not a get out jail free card, but that is a long story in itself. [Commentary] EVEN IN ILLNESS Eph. 5:28-30 28 So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body. [Commentary] Yoked to an unbeliever 1Co. 7: 10-28 10But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband 11(but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. 12 But to the rest say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away. 14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife? 17 Only,as the Lord has assigned to each one, as God has called each, in this manner let him walk And)so I direct in all the churches. 18 Was any man called when he was already circumcised? He is not to become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? )He is not to be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. 20Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called. 21Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. 22For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. 24Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called. 25Now concerning virgins I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion as one who by the mercy of the Lord is trustworthy. 26I think then that this is good in view of the present distress, that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be released. Are you released from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you. 1peter 3:1-7 In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. 3 Your adornment must not be merely external--braiding the hair, and wearing gold jewelry, or putting on dresses; 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. [Commentary] What if two mate can not live peaceably together? Separation is permissible as show in the above versus. 1 Cor 7:11 (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife. [Commentary] Usually in today’s society, this will not be an issue, someone who is physically or verbally abusive, will most likely commit adultery. If they both remain celibate, if you marry one of them, then you would be committing the adultery. A young man suggested Christians should be leading the way on divorce, first they must learn Christ’s way, of love, proper head ship, and the seriousness of divorce. In past when these doctrines were properly applied the divorce rate were in the single digits. Even today churches that emphasis love, proper head ship, and seriousness of divorce is in the low single digits. Why are not your churches?? Quietone777
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5/2/2006 7:54 pm |
RJB and Angeni, Excellent thoughts from both of you. As I posted, last week, the Grace of God is the paramount thing, here. We can't keep the Law, in it's totality. If we break any part of it, we're guilty of all of it. Jesus knew this, which is why He took on the cross. When it comes down to it, there is not a covenant that I can keep on my own, for I will fail in one way or another. When God had but one law, or covenant for us to keep "Do not eat the fruit of this specific tree", we couldn't even honor that. How much more difficult is it to honor every single law and covenant there is? Can we say "This covenant is more important than that?" Jesus understood this about us. Everything he said and did as he walked this earth shows the truth of this. As Angeni pointed out, above, He had every right to condemn the Samaritan woman with 5 husbands, and fry her with a bolt of lightning, on the spot. But, he didn't. ALL things work together for the Glory of God, to those who are called according to His purposes. Those who belong to Him, He forgives, cut and dried. Those who don't, it doesn't matter WHAT they do. Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. Either He loves us and releases us from the Law, or He doesn't. The only ones who are subject to it are those who do not accept Grace, who do not repent and turn from their sins. We all screw up, Sister. You see the covenant marriage thing, yet that is no different than other screw ups. If we are free of the others, how can you say we are not free of this, as well? -Danny
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I have never said we were not free from the condemnation and burden for payment of sin (breaking of covenant - remarriage - etc.) for we are "free" in Christ - FROM THE PENALTY FOR OUR SINS! not from the consequences - but from the penalty - these are very different and separate things, Danny - Jesus remained "subject" to the "Law" as regards the commandments of GOD - and we are to walk in obedience to HIS life - just as HE walked, so are we to walk - this is not about condemning anyone - but rather condemning the attitude that seeks to place the comfort of SELF above the GLORY of GOD! and that is what remarriage does, if your first spouse lives - for in remarrying you are breaking YOUR covenant promise to "forsake all others" - Angeni, your post is beautiful! - And I am glad that you felt welcomed to share it - for you are welcomed in your presence here - I agree with so much of what you have written - and I wish to read it again (and maybe even a third time in full) to be sure that I have completely received all that is there - for there is much to consider - I do not see only the physical act of intimacy as the spiritually binding agreement of marriage, however, for when GOD called Hosea to take a 'harlot' as his wife - she had already been "united" as one flesh with many others - yet Hosea was told to take her and marry her - GOD used the term "wife" which is through marriage, which must coem about through more than the physical union of two bodies - else there would have been no "marriage" between Hosea and the harlot - which was to be a picture for GOD's relationship with Israel - but as I said - I want to read your post many more times, Angeni - QuietOne - thank you for your kindness in tone - it is so very wonderful to read! I do not really feel like an underdog - although I know that many here are angry with my statements - it is ok - I promise - for they are not truly angry with me - and I have a peace about that - Like Angeni's post - I need to really read what you have offered in a manner that will allow me to absorb it - not just to "read" it - and I would not be telling you the truth if I claimed that I had really read for understanding and absorption as I should - I promise I will do that though - I only need some time - it is late and my eyes are dry and tired! but I am glad that you all are here - Sincerely, Frances
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5/2/2006 9:06 pm |
You're right Godlycook, I overlooked that, thank you for bringing that to my attention. It's good to keep a lady on her toes... 
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5/2/2006 9:56 pm |
You are so right about consequences, Frances. I cannot begin to fathom all the consequences of Paula's infidelity, and of her impending remarriage. Will her remarriage change anything that I now face. No. Not one thing. If I were to remarry, would it change any of the things that she must face... no, not one. It is a huge tangled mess of hurt and anger and resentment, which paints the picture for all of us why God hates divorce so much... Yet it still happens. My friend (who is very sweet and evidently blind to my faults) thinks my wife is a moron for leaving me. The issue is not that Paula broke our covenant, it is that she refuses to renew it... There is no covenant with one person. It takes two. I can watch Britney Spears on TV and make a covenant with her through my TV, but she will not uphold it. Am I required to? I realize that seems like a silly comparison (and it is) but it reflects the truth of the situation that so many find themselves in: they have entered into a covenant with someone who did NOT enter the same covenant with them. My wife and I made a covenant until death do we part. That came 9 years, 8 months and 12 days later, as far as she is concerned. On March 20th , she decided we were not married, or under covenant with one another. On March 14th, 2006, a judge agreed with her. Neither one gave me a vote in the matter, and neither cares what I think about it. Yet I am being asked to honor a covenant to her that SHE doesn't accept, nor honor. Why is the consequence on my head? I broke no covenant, would be with her this very day, were it by my choice. Jesus recognized this, and that it was a result of HER adultery. This is why he said "Any who divorce, except for adultery, and remarry..." He freed me, with that one exception. Since she refused to repent, that one exception has condemned her, by her own hand. If she repents later, then she will no longer be condemned. I will never know, because I will eventually leave this city, never to return, and I will never know what becomes of her. I am done with her, forever. -Dann
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5/2/2006 10:07 pm |
Angeni your post was beautiful and very much dripped in love and understanding. I do agree with ever word as the Lord has shown me many of the things you posted many years ago and some day I will have to share them on my blog. Bless you sister for digging into the word and sharing the Father's heart on such matters. Blessings) Israel
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Danny, you ask why the consequences are on YOUR head when SHE was the one who violated the covenant? I ask you why were the consequences upon YESHUA'S head when WE were the ones who sinned against HIM? Why are the consequences often times upon the CHILDREN'S heads ina divorce when THEY are OBVIOUSLY not the ones who did any wrong? consequences many times affect those who had no direct hand in the sinful behavior - just as a female victim may become pregnant from the assault - she did nothing wrong, yet one of the possible consequences of the sinful act of may indeed be that she becomes pregnant - is that "fair" - not at all! So what is our responsibility when life isn't fair to us with consequences? Well, a good place to start is to remember that eternity isn't fair to us with regard to consequences either - for if it were - if GOD were fair to us with regard to eternity and the eternal consequences of OUR actions - then every one of us would get hell! How does HE react to our sin against HIM - from the perspective of a relationship already existing -not from GOD to unbeliever - but from GOD to HIS child - or Jesus to HIS Bride? (who has been terribly adulterous during the betrothal!) what do we see GOD doing? - THAT is your example - even though you don't want it to be - what you (and others) want, is a verse that tells you that you didn't sin and therefor you don't have to honor your word - that seems odd to me when I look at the cross - for that is certainly NOT what GOD told His only Son when he was faced with faithfulness to the cross - that is what you are to do, Danny - you know this - your spirit once even testified to this here on this site - "who has bewitched you?" - Have you granted the devil a toe-hold, Danny? - have you opended your heart of flesh to the spirit of lonliness or entitlement? if so, cast them out! You know the verses that apply - clean your house of those that wish to rob you of Truth! The will not help you! Turn back to your "first LOVE" - this time being Truth! the LORD as your first love, Danny - if you actually believed within your spirit that you were indeed "free" within the LORD's BLESSING to remarry without concern of your previous lifetime committment, then why are you even discussing this with me here? I am tired of writing and rewriting the same thing to those of you who have already "made up your own minds" about faithfulness and how you are not accountable to live that way - you want OTHERS to live that way - but you don't want to! It is a double standard, Danny - and you know it! It will never be easy to say, "Not my will, Father" as the cross is hewn and we are told to take it upon our back and walk with it - It will never be easy to say, "Yes, Father" as the nails are driven deeper into our flesh - it will never be easy to say, "Forgive them, Father" as the sword pierces our side - and it will never be fair, Danny - you know this - but GOD never tells us that this life is fair - in fact, the simply understanding that we ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of GOD ought to be enough to show us that our very life - the very fact that we even still have breath is not fair!!! who are you looking at, Danny? - You are looking at your own circumstances and you are grumbling and complaining! Just as Bryan does - just as we all do when faced with a call to obedience or faithfulness or honor or righteousness! we don't want to do it because it hurts! The Cross is PAINFUL! but GOD has called us to that cross - check your focus next time you seek to justify what you are doing - who does it stand to serve? - who is glorified in your pursuit of ANOTHER marriage? your flesh is, Danny - the LORD is not glorified as a direct result of our motivation when we seek to remarry - He may indeed be glorified through things - but it will not be attributed to our spirit's motivation when what we seek violates the very life principles that HE HIMSELF lived for us! for that is selfishness on our parts - and does NOTHING to glorify HIM! who do you really want glorified through and by your life, Danny? yourself, or the LORD? either choice will require sacrifice, Danny- for whomever you chose, the other must die - May HE, the Name above ALL names, be honored and glorified for ever! Sincerely, Frances
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5/3/2006 6:40 am |
I must admit that I haven't read absolutely every post, so someone may have already said what I am about to, forive me. I don't understand, I really don't. Please help me understand. Why is it that if Jesus died for everyone of our sins, why would be not die and forgive the reasons for divorce that aren't clearly written in the bible? Does Jesus care more for the institution of the marriage than He does the people in the marriage? If the people in it are destroying each other, does Jesus want us to live like that? If it can't be worked out and the children are suffering badly as a result would He still want the people to be married when the children thrive more if the parents are apart? Then would He want the children not to have another male/female good christian role model to support the parent carer of those kids? I could go on. I am just full to the brim with questions which I don't have the answer for and when I get like this. I cried buckets of tears, go to the Lord with my petitions and hurts and He says 'my precious child, you're free' I and my husband weren't professing to be christians when we got divorced. I was dying inside. One month after divorce I became a christian. One would ask if God wanted my married saved why wouldn't He have opened my eyes a little earlier? My conscience is clear to re-marry and my name is in the book of life, under R for Ruth, precious daughter of the King. I really admire you Frances that you stick to what it says in the bible, but I think that there are loads of cases and different reasons why people get divorced. God told someone in the bible (sorry not up with what and where) to go and marry a prostitute, now that we wouldn't view is right, but God in that case instructed and the man obeyed. What I'm trying to say is that not everything is in black and white. Sorry I'm all over the place in this posting (in every posting I hear you say  .
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5/3/2006 7:11 am |
Is looking at porn adultery? Maybe not in the flesh but in the mind.
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5/3/2006 8:44 am |
Frances, before I post I want to be sure of what you are saying in regards to God's attitude towards faithless Israel. Are you saying man should imitate the actions of God, because even after He divorced Israel, He still referred to her as His wife, or referred to Himself as her husband? I just want to be sure of what you are saying as your bottom line. I don't want to take up your time on the board needlessly. You know, this isn't really part of the discussion, save as a side light. I look at your picture, and read your posts, and there's this attitude clash or something, that I think is effecting the way people view what you are saying. Some people, anyway. The picture is so stoic (to me) - it all offers a statement, an initial statement of who and what you are. Then I read words that seem to say something completely different about you, and your heart in matters of love towards God and man. Just an observation. I really don't think it's as much what you write as some folks impression of who is writing it; and the syle in which you compose your posts. Courage, Ray
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5/3/2006 11:34 am |
Frances, Forgive me for jumping the gun, and also this long post. Some thoughts. I shall be out of harmony with many people at this website, I reckon, but the reasons I believe your position is incorrect would be based on these: The final divorce of the Jewish nation did not take place in the referrences you have given. I believe it did take place at the end of the seventy weeks spoken of in Daniel 9:24; the 'determination,' or "cutting off" of Israel. The beginning date of the prophecy being spoken of, in Daniel 8, and explained by Gabriel in chapter 9, is the decree of Artaxerxes, found in Ezra 7, which began in 457 b.c. The prophetic time period of seventy weeks, or 490 years, ran out in 34 a.d. That marks the date of the stoning of Stephen. The conversion of Saul followed, and the gospel went to the gentiles: "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46 The significance of this is contained in these passages: Jesus, speaking to the Jews: "Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them." Matt. 21:42-45 Jesus warned them everything God entrusted to them would be given to another nation. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matt. 23:37,38 Jesus told them His Father's house would ultimately become their house, and a worthless building, ultimately to be brought down below the ground, by Roman conquest. Paul, writing to the gentile believers in Rome: "For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom. 11:13-21 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom. 11:25 The Jews filled their cup in 34 a.d. The church became a conglomeration of both Jew and Gentile believer in a spiritual kingdom. The nation of Israel lost its place as God's wife. The Jews, as people, can be grafted in, but partial blindness will hold them back as a nation. When the Gentile world fills its cup of iniquity, its time will close, human probation will close, the final events will rapidly unwind, and Christ will return to claim His people. Paul to the Gentile believers in Corinth: "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 2 Cor. 11:2 Needless to say, Gentiles of Paul's day were notorious for their sexual behavior, even as a religious practice. But, the fact is, God, Himself, is remarrying after divorcing the nation of Israel; remarrying a chaste virgin bride of former sexual deviates in many cases. Paul to the Gentile believers in Galatia: "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal. 6:15,16 Israel is now spiritual, not literal, made up of all true believers. Peter to the Gentile believers: "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet. 2:9,10 God's actions towards the nation of Israel in the OT and gospels has met with closure. The Jewish/Gentile church is now His new bride. All of God's promises and judgments are conditional, Jer. 8  -10. I believe I mentioned that on another blog discussion where this subject was raised.God bore long with Israel for centuries. In Isaiah Isa 50:1 : "Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away." There is no mention of any particular iniquities or transgressions in this passage; one that gave rabbis and leaders in Israel much to chew on for centuries as to trying to understand its meaning for human marriage and divorce. Jer. 3:8 -11 “And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks. And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD. And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.” Here we see God’s reason for writing a bill of divorcement by Jeremiah’s time. The reason is obviously harlotry, adultery; fornication with the world, in a spiritual sense. That certainly sets the tone for Christ’s words 600 years later. The causes are not really mentioned, but Israel committed adultery because of them. Justification of one’s wrong actions is most grievous in God’s eyes, and notice “treacherous” Judah. Mal 2:14-16, "Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant. And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously." The OT closes out with this well known passage. One cannot mistake the attitude of men that God is addressing, self-justification, and treachery, which fits largely into Christ’s words 400 years later, regarding hardness of heart; which is also the principle behind the abandonment of a spouse, in 1 Cor. 7. Is the ultimate issue the institution of marriage, or that which exists in it by virtue of its participants? I believe and am convicted it is the latter. Does the covenant binded by vows remain in place for both praties, if one violates it? I believe not. Divorce is allowable. Remarriage is allowable. God is our example in all things. Open to your views. Courage in the Lord, Ray
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5/3/2006 11:44 am |
For some odd reason, the number 7 or seems to always register as an emoticon. Sorry about that. "Ps 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. " I believe that verse is explained by these: Ps 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Ps 89:4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. Ps 89:35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. Ps 89:36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. Ps 89:37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. That covenant promise was fulfilled to David and his seed through Jesus. The Jews have had no king on a throne for 2000 years. God did not lie, nor break His covenant. The Jewish nation broke it, and God chose another to fulfill His promise to David. And I believe David shall rejoice to see the redeemed of all ages counted as his seed, and the seed of Abraham. Courage, Ray
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5/5/2006 4:17 am |
Jaci, Your post, like others I have seen, strikes at the heart of an issue that is just not taken into consideration very often in this discussion - what IS marriage? What IS covenant? What stands behind vows? Courage, Ray
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"Does the covenant binded by vows remain in place for both praties, if one violates it? I believe not." Ray, the above quote is your's - and it is here that we disagree, I believe - Also here, within another quote from your post above: "Needless to say, Gentiles of Paul's day were notorious for their sexual behavior, even as a religious practice. But, the fact is, God, Himself, is remarrying after divorcing the nation of Israel; remarrying a chaste virgin bride of former sexual deviates in many cases." You see, I do not view this at all as GOD remarrying - for the Church that has been betrothed as the Bride is a Bride unto the SON! The Father's covenant 'marriage' was and IS with Israel - with whom WE - the CHURCH have been grafted in - I do not believe it is the 'nation' of Israel that we have been taught to perceive it to be that is in fact the Israel of which ALL will be saved - but that is another blog in itself - as to this issue, GOD reconciled Israel to Himself - and that was and is HIS 'marriage' which is different entirely from the marriage supper of the Lamb - HE (Father GOD) has selected a Bride for HIS Son - not a "new" bride for Himself - and it is part of the mystery that is marriage - for while they are one - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - they are also three in distinction - just as a husband and wife and child are one as a family - but three distinctions of persons - He has given us a Godly example for every situation in life - and we see over and over and over again HIS faithfulness in the face of all sin- we see over and over and over again HIS honor unto HIS Word - despite ALL dishonor of OUR word - THAT is to be our example - surely you agree? and we know that HE has ALREADY equipped us to walk in this manner by showing us the cross and our LORD's yielded life- and by giving us the Holy Spirit through HIS grace - this isn't about someone else's violation to a covenant - it is about your violation - Isn't it telling that GOD never based HIS committment to HIS Word upon OUR committment to our word? For HE is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow! - Praise GOD! HE can never fail His WORD! - can't happen - right? we are to walk that way - and we are to take HIM at His Word - wherein we read that HE has already given us everything necessary for Godliness - we are called to be holy - and He has shown us how - but it hurts - being holy hurts as long as we are "in the flesh" - both literally and figuratively - for it means certain death to the flesh - you see - Jesus had "skin" - but we really never see a demstration of "flesh" from Him, do we? how can that be? for we read that He was just like us? well - at the time He was walking here with skin on - He did have something we had yet to receive - and in fact were not due to receive until HIS time had come (death and resurrection) then, we were given the same advantage over flesh that HE had when He walked among us - the Holy Spirit - how little we acknowledge the Spirit! - How sad for us that it is true! what a great study that would be! How I have just been motivated in a wonderful way! but back to this point - we have no excuse that matches HIS example if we walk away from our covenant commitments - that is what one would need in order to justify remarriage while your first spouse lives - an agreement between Word and deed - for we have been given HIS examples for all things in BOTH realms of Truth - Word and Deed - (and probably many other realms as well) - Oh! - Yes! Praise GOD for the lightbulb here! - the other realm! - Spirit!! Word - Deed - Spirit! GOD spoke it - Jesus did it - Holy Spirit IS it! for HIS spirit is what we are as we have been created anew! our spirit and HIS have become as one! and HE will not remarry - ever - I hope this makes the same sense to those who read it as it makes to me - for some of this is immediately new to my spirit in understanding - so my delivery may not yet be as clear as could be possible - but I will pray that HE will transform my poor wording to HIS perfect message in the hearts He has prepared before the beginning of time - Ray, you are a very intelligent and well-studied man - and I am very glad that you posted here, and I hope that you will do so in the future should I continue to post myself - In HIS love - Frances
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5/8/2006 7:36 am |
Frances, I appreciate the response and your consistency. A thought, It has been my understanding that Jesus is the great I Am, and as such, the OT is but His interaction with God's people as the great Intermediary down through all ages: always the Bridge, always the Connection, always the the Link between the Godhead and man. Hence, I see the relationship with Israel between them and pre-born Jesus in the manger. As such, the privilege of Israel's being His wife was revoked, for reasons stated, and also made new, reinstated to and through the church, composed of both Jew and Gentile. And, I still hold to the principle in Jeremiah that all of God's promises and threatenings are, alike, conditional, upon the attitude and choices of the receiver. That does not change His character in the least. HE remains the same. His words and actions being a reflection of His purposes, which are bound up with man's reception. Are we still in this world because the promise of Jesus to "come quickly" was not faithfully carried out, or because His people have delayed the event by their choices and lives, down through the ages? Thank you for your kind comments. My privilege to be here. Courage in the Lord, Ray
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we are new creatures - and to continually stand under the umbrella of the title of "sinner" in order to protect and shield us from personal responsibility and accountability in our walk is not from GOD - we are called to be holy - and we have been given what we need to do so - the Holy Spirit and NEW LIFE! "while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" - true - we were and ARE sinners - but we are NEVER to "hide" behind that fact - and indeed we CAN "be faithful like GOD" now that we have PART of HIM LIVING WITHIN us - to claim otherwise is a grave thing for a True Believe to do! oh - and by the way - should you ever read through my other blog posts - some from last year - you will find that on one occasion I did just as you suggested here - I had a rather short post in comparison to most wherein I basically wrote exactly what you suggested I write - the principle is the same - you are right - but we have NO excuse acceptable to GOD for our refusal to walk in obedience when we HAVE been given the grace to do so - we may not be mature enough to accept that grace - but it is still there - and we know it - but thank you for stopping by - Sincerely, Frances
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you are odd - I do not know a better word - for odd fits what I sense from you - I can say with complete truth that since January 1, 2006, I have not uttered a cuss word - but that does not mean that I haven't sinned - for I have sinned - but you assume much about me - "You have the grace to speak as clean as an angel now, right? I am assuming you don't talk that clean yet. So, how do you explain it?" I explain it by stating that I have not done as you suggest - Sincerely, Frances
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5/10/2006 3:34 am |
Hey, BM, nice grammer and puncuation, but how can you say this here and everywhere else be a ... Even you said here, " People will make mistakes. The same mistakes whether we walk in grace or we try and perform which most do because they do not understand. Lip service of good intentions can be a clanging symbol. I am not perfect and never will be. But I am redeemed and it is all placed at his feet." Where is the grace you beguile us with here!!!
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from which vantage point of your chosen parable do you place me - the blog initiator? for I have no problem with those who only work two hours receiving the agreed upon price - what I do take issue with is an attitude that believes personal responsibility is based upon what someone else does - which is simply crazy - for at that point is not 'personal' responsibility there are several possible avenues to drive down with this discussion, but if you are focusing in on the concept of "It is finished" then we can ride this road for a time - Jesus (Yeshua) DID fulfill the law - and you are right in that we CAN'T of ourselves KEEP the law - which is why to begin with GOD instituted a system of blood sacrifice to atone for the breaking of the law -which was and is sin - we now have a New Blood covenant regarding sin and forgiveness - Jesus Christ - He DID Live by - Keep - Fulfill - the law - and He also sent one to us that WILL allow for obedience EVEN TO THE LAW - as it is now written upon our hearts - but we must yield to Him for that to become evident in our lives - and yielding to Him means death to ourselves - this is not at all a call to "law-keeping" for praise of self - for that is selfish idolotry - but it is a call to obedience in ALL things - to the Father - just as the Son was always - ALWAYS obedient to that which brought TOTAL glory to the Father - and the greatest thing that brings Glory to the Father is TOTAL abandon of self as evidence of our devotion and loyalty to HIM alone! and how is this accomplished? - through our very death - for if "we" live - there is no place for HIM - but if "we" die - HE LIVES! - and we then walk in THAT newness of life! - HIS life - not our own - which means we experience ALL that was and IS His life - including the cross - the old "rugged" cross - and it hurts! what the "blog initiator" asks with this blog is whether or not you all find something "false" in the call to walk in absolute faithfullness in all things just as HE walks in faithfullness to all things - for we are called to be "immitators of Christ" - this is not about equality in payment - for with regard to eternal life there is no equality for our LORD - yet we reap undeserved benefit from that which was and ever will be the pinnacle and zenith of unfair! The cross - so - whether one "works" for a lifetime or only a moment - it is still grossly unfair that we receive anything but hell - which is why it is called grace - but that grace is by no means a key to escape the accountability of our walk wherein the scales are set to weigh the balance between our consequences versus the Glory unto the LORD - our disobedience is forgiven - and knowing that is enough to perpetuate the call to personal responsibility - and we are not to be concerned that even future sin will become "unforgiveable" - (save for one) - but we are to understand that we each have a responsibility - not something to merely think upon adopting - no, a responsibility to life as He lived - and that in order to do that - we must realize and accept that we can't! which means something else must be done in order for my life to be like - or to become - His - for my life is no longer my own anyway -having been bought for a price - so - what can be done to allow my life to become HIS life in word and deed and thought and Spirit? - My life - "MY" life - must cease in all regard and be put as far away from my recognition as our sins are removed from the LORD - for how else is it that you think the LORD can do as much? - How is is that Holy GOD can put our sins so far from Himself that they are not even remembered? how can GOD "forget?" - anything? He is GOD! "I will remember them no more" but He really doesn't even have to 'forget' - for it isn't our life that He sees - but the life and death of His Son - our LORD - so - my life must be as far from me as my sins are from Him - and the only way for that to come about is through my willing death to myself (my will) in all things - for THEN it is HIS life that is coursing through my veins - HIS blood - HIS sacrifice - and HIS obedience to all things that glorify the Father alone! it is HIS cross that becomes my life - not my death - it is a matter of perception, I believe - for how we look upon something has great impact upon how we understand it - and we need always remember that to look upon the cross most certainly means life - eternal life but it also means death - even a type of 'eternal death' of our own will - through that death we are born again - and from that birth we are blessed and gifted and equipped through HIS Holy Spirit to walk as HE walked - which was in keeping with all that honored the Father - I believe we are called to as much - Sincerely, Frances
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5/11/2006 8:47 am |
Frances, is there false doctrine on this thread? Yes. I have seen it here and elsewhere. It is the doctrine disobedience, framed in the man-made addage that we are sinners, therefore, we shall sin. I wonder if all alcoholics and drug addicts, sex addicts, and the fallen of this race in other such socially unaccpetable ways should take that view? I am an alcoholic, therefore, I must always drink. I am a drug addict, therefore I must always shoot up. I am a sexual deviate, therefore I must always prey. If the gospel of Jess Christ is not better than to just forgive us; if it cannot cleanse from ALL sin; if His love cannot be perfected in us; if we cannot escape the corruptions that are in this world through lust; if we cannot gain the victory over every single sin that so easily besets us; if we are going to allow our own nature determine our own daily walk, rather then Christ in us, the hope of glory, who is able to keep us from falling, ad infinitem - passage, after passage, after passage of Holy Writ, this religion is half a faith, half a promise, and half a work to be completed in those preparing to meet Jesus when He returns in glory. What is He now doing as our High Priest in heaven's sanctuary above? Is cleansing not thorough? Is it only a partial work upon the temple of our soul? Please, forgive my passion here. I feel the God of heaven has been reproached, and it is taking place in thousands of pulpits throughout the earth, week by week, month by month, year by year, and a gross weakness exists that has enabled the culture to almost completely overtake the church now. Grace is power to obey. Jesus knows it; hence He commends those and encourages us to "overcome." The issue is not whether Frances or anyone else is perfectly obedient to the laws and desires of God, which are, as she stated, to be placed in our hearts and in our mindds through the New Covenant, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16, quoting Jeremiah 31:33. The issue is whether or not God's grace can enable the child of God to obey Him, as a principle. If that living principle is true, then the ones who take it into their being, and ABIDE in Christ, shall know purifictaion in the life. It is not just forgiveness for the penalty of sin, it is power to over come sin in our lives. Ye shall call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people FROM their sins - not in their sins. I would challenge anyone here, or anywhere, to come up with just one, single text of Holy Scripture that states a person cannot obey every single command of God. Just one. Not two, or a dozen. Just one. You shall not find it, because it is not there. And to say we cannot perfectly obey, because our perception is no one ever has, after conversion, is to make an assessment no human being can possibly make of the redeemed down through the ages. All HAVE sinned, and come short. Now, please, for your own soul's sake, find the place that states all WILL always sin, and come short of the glory of God. The glory of God is His character, Exo. 33:18-34:8. If I partake of the divine nature through conversion, if I abide in Christ, logic and common sense tell me I will have victory over ever thought, word and action out of harmony with God's holy will. I can have Christ's character engraved over mine. The ONLY thing that matters is if I abide in Christ, my choice, day by day, moment by moment, to walk after the Spirit, not after the flesh; and I or anyone can fulfill the righteousness of the law, because He came here and fought the battle in sinful flesh, Himself, not sinless flesh. He was tempted in all points like we are, but did no sin. He did not do that just to take our place, but to also give us HIS victory in REALITY, not in prose and poem. Glory to God, and mercy, Oh Lord, why dost Thy children doubt Your power to save from sin? It's an epidemic now. Frances, please forgive me for taking this kind of space on your blog. In this aspect of salvation, I find no fault with thee. But, man, I just am so sorrowful and wearied to see such misunderstanding of God's grace and power to overcome that I am seeing everwhere here at this site. Again, please forgive my passion, brothers and sisters. This is a very serious issue that faces the church of Jesus Christ in these last days. You must obey, you can obey, and you will obey if you love God, and abide in Christ. God commands. God provides. Glory to God. Courage in the Lord, Ray
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do not ever apologize for Truth, Ray! Praise GOD for your post! Praise GOD for your understanding in the area of obedience! For I am not now nor have I ever spoken in a language that was unknown to others - yet so many were not able to understand what I was saying - perhaps they will understand through your post! I pray we all do - you were right to post these things - and I agree that the church is dangerously walking as through directed by human will and human flesh - with words like obedience, righteousness, faithfulness, lawful, responsibility, accountability, immitation, sacrifice, flesh, death to, life in, life through, and the like no longer accepted as what is applicable to us as Children of Almighty GOD! what happened is we realized what that cross meant for each and every one of us - and we liked what it offered in the future tense, but not what it promised for today - how many of you have read that wonderful little story, "The Little Red Hen?" if you have read it, you know what I mean - if you have never read it - go to a children's book store and buy a copy - it is in part an excellent analogy of how we seek to benefit from someone else's work and effort without any thought as to our own responsibility - while the overall conclusion of the story is not in keeping with the total principle of salvation through faith alone - (meaning no works apply unto our salvation and conversion) the moral of an attitude of entitlement is wonderfully presented. Ray - again, I am glad that you are here -I respect your boldness for Truth - please know you are welcome - and never worry about the length of your posts, I have no problem with long posts if that is what is necessary to convey the message. Sincerely, Frances
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5/11/2006 2:12 pm |
Hey Frances, Today I leave BC, but I just wanted to come by and encourage you as you stand firm in defending the Word of God. I have been blessed and encouraged by your strong stand and clarity of delivery - even if sometimes it may have seemed harsh. Choosing God above all else requires sacrifice and it is not an easy choice. Two things occurred to me in the last couple of days: 1) We claim to be the only religion that has a living God, a God who blesses us with the grace and strength to overcome. We call on Him to help us overcome our illnesses or to deliver us from sadness etc, but hesitate to call upon Him when we want to sin. There are so many religions out there where the believers have such commitment that they gladly follow some of the most legalistic rules... but we who have supernatural power available to us and profess to being in love with Jesus, excuse our behaviour as already being forgiven and don't put half the effort in to overcoming (even though most of the guidelines God put in place are about our own health and protection). How do we really express our love; are we in fact in love with Him or just glad we are forgiven? 2) It amuses me how we pick through sins and decide this one is okay and this one isn't. For instance we all believe that even a murderer is forgiven if he turns his life over to Jesus; but who of us would support and encourage that murderer in continuing to murder, or even maim, or just beat people up? Surely we would do all we could to let that person know that in our new life with Christ these things need to change and can change because of the power He gives us and we would stand by them as they go through counselling or whatever is required for them to overcome their desire to hurt others. But with marriage, we do the exact opposite... our need to satisfy our human desires takes precedence and it's somehow acceptable. Again I believe divorce and remarriage, in the end, is between the individual and God and that there is a time where God permits a person to go through with a plan, because His love for us is so great - but I don't believe it is His perfect will. We so often settle for His permissive will, instead of striving for His perfect will. Wanting His perfect will doesn't make us perfect, it just means we have a different mindset to our sin, what is acceptable and how we approach areas of temptation. Thank you Frances for striving for His perfect will. God bless.
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OH! - Casturcares! -How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news! you have brought Good news today - because you bring a message of Truth for all to read and understand! Look how the LORD has brought His Word around again! - for you have presented something - like Ray above - that I would wish my messages could convey! perfect vs. permissive is something I have indeed written of - but you are so wonderfully clear and gentle here - something that I am not too gifted with, I suppose! But how I Praise GOD for your insight and your gentle spirit! and how we will miss you - I know that we are not perfect - and that we will not of ourselves even live perfectly - but you are so right in that we need strive for His perfect will - instead of settle for His permissive will - what wisdom you have in things of the LORD - and how we need such wisom these days! now - will you periodically return to us here? May we pray for you in certain ways? - you have blessed so many here - and I have no doubt that wherever you light again you will bless those around you - and may I just tell you that you chose one of the most wonderful handles of anyone here? for we are to "cast our cares" of the world at the foot of the cross and the feet of our Saviour! you are a sweet example to the rest of us - and I pray GOD's continued blessings in your life - Sincerely, Frances
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5/19/2006 9:14 pm |
so many words, to bad I didnt read them, or understand them. except for Ken, a one line satement so simple I couldnt resist. resist. Francis, My ex broke contact with me in December. I dont know her address. I have no way of contacting her. My dilema is everytime I think about love, memmory's of her come up. Francis, what should I do. Francis, romance is eating away at my soul. I wake up lonly and horny sometimes. When I think of her I feel moody and sad like a child who misses his mommy. Francis, when she first left me, I cried every day for a whole year. Francis, please respond.
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5/22/2006 7:05 pm |
Mr. Livingsacrifice, Mind your manners; I think you should leave Frances alone concerning this matter. -rjb
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5/22/2006 11:53 pm |
lol
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I have never advocated taking back a former spouse who themselves remarried and divorced a second time - in fact, if you have truly read my blogs, you will find that I state my understanding to be that this is forbidden - if one divorces and remarries, the original spouse is not to take that person back in marriage - it is a hard teaching - and I may be wrong on some points, but this is how my spirit understands it at present - for we are to "forsake all others" as long as we both shall live - no matter what - I am sorry that you have misinterpreted my blog - but I appreciate your input - Frances
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Gismo, thank you for joining us in this discussion - I must tell you that I am certainly not an expert in these matters, but you are right in that I have researched this topic. As for annulments, I see absolutely no reference for this in the Scriptures - I know that some denominations recognize annulments, but denominations are from man, not GOD - to the best of my knowledge, there is no Scriptural support for the idea of an annulment - if someone else here has found this to be in error, I hope they will share it with us so that we may all have wisdom in Truth to consider. Again, thank you for joining the discussion - Sincerely, Frances
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9/23/2008 12:46 am |
Christine (Frances), Cannot praise you enough for your very clear stand on this subject and the biblical accuracy you hold by that conviction. Probably why you win souls for Christ, have no children out of wedlock, no divorces, and why you are truly a maiden for all reasons and a maiden for all seasons. It is also why for nearly a year I have fallen so deeply in love with you. You are truly a Isaiah 54:1-8 maiden in every way. Your stance is to be admired and praised for its sagacity. And, you have great breasts and you look like one of the pale Atalay Mongol Goddess types in Ghengis Kahn's court, and for that I would find all the gold on Earth to lay at your feet......... Behold, I do you, maiden fair and thank you and the Lord for the gift you are to me! Robert
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9/24/2008 12:13 am |
Interesting, if you are a serious commited Christian, what then is the 4 things that are the testament of the truly saved person, since many "think" they are saved, a few "know" they are saved.? (Clue=the book of Ephesians) Her picture is not only provocative, but downright hot, so what? She caused me to "stumble" thank God, so I ask her to marry me, breasts and all. It's the least I could do. The Lord made her, bought her in blood, and built her for my good pleasure. Amen!!! Thank you Lord. The elephant is a bull male, and it is right behind you...........in every way a bull elephant can be, while in the rut. Behold that. Robert
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9/7/2010 4:55 am |
I commented on another post of yours wondering who you were talking to - here I see other people unlike on an earlier post - but now I see you responding to people but thier comments are not quoted or even appearing at all. I am not challenging your right to do what you want with 'your' blog but I am curious why you do not allow some comments but yet respond to those comments? Just seems strange to me. Anyway, Hope you are well and safe in Christ. Gods Love to you.
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