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Tropical_Guy
(Dennis Thompson)
69M
1709 posts
4/21/2006 3:45 pm

Last Read:
4/26/2006 2:43 pm

Are You once saved...always saved?

The debate goes on but the scriptures speak clearly
Yes
No
I dont Know


ForsakenOne
(Danny Milligan)
58M

4/21/2006 4:49 pm

This is a worthy subject for debate. Of course, if you are truly saved you can never lose your salvation.

The question I have always faced was this: how many out there believe they're saved because of some doctrine of man, and how many people out there believe they're saved because they sold out to Jesus Christ, body and soul? The ones I have been trying to reach with this message are the ones who let men fool them...those who belong to Him know the sound of His voice, and all I'm doing there is "preaching to the choir", LOL.

You put everything so well in this post, brother. I'd love to see you get locked in a room with a few Jehovah's Witnesses....I'll bet THEY'D be the ones leaving with a change of heart, not you!

Have a blessed day!

-Danny


ForsakenOne
(Danny Milligan)
58M

4/21/2006 7:29 pm

By the way, I belong to jesus, first and foremost, so I guess you know how I voted, right?


Gripper2
(Ed )
66M

4/21/2006 8:10 pm

In the long run it dosen't really matter how many times you hit a dead horse, the horse will still be dead...eventually though, you will wear yourself out.


Sapphire1965
(Sharon L)
59F

4/21/2006 10:46 pm

I think there are many people who will get to Heaven by the skin of their teeth. While salvation is not achieved by works, works are required of a believer if we love Him, and that will be shown when we reach the Judgment Seat. Those who lived for Him and have done his work will be rewarded and those who lived for themselves, although they be "saved" will be rewarded for what they did (or didn't do). The stubble will burn.


odimma56 68F
188 posts
4/21/2006 10:48 pm

Ones saved is not forever saved.
When we come to Jesus we get saved from our sins and like Bible makes it clare, who ever believes, will be saved. But Paul was writing 'work for your salvation'! Being saved is like a journey you start from the day you give your life to Jesus, and it continues till the day you die, or be raptured. Salvation can be loosed by returning back into sinful life and away from God.

Paul wrote to Corinthians 9 that we all are running, but only those who will win get the winning price, and he made it obvious that its struggle, but its not by our own works, so no one can consider one self better than other.

Its the work of God in Jesus that saves us. But he also mentioned that we are born again to do good works for people, not that our good works will save us.(Ef. 2:8-10) What saves is the faith and believe in Jesus.

It has to be understood what the works mean in christian life. Ef.4:17-32: 5:1,2)Paul even said (somewhere, not remember now) that if your Christian brother is living unworthy life and you warn him and he does not repent, go to the elders and take them with you to speak to him, and if he refuse to repent then live him into hands of the devil. You can not save your brother by force.

People take it too lightly, which also has been warned 'do not take your salvation lightly, it was done by precious blood', and think, ones saved for ever saved and no need to worry. We have to watch our footsteps so we do not slip away and do not go wrong.

KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS, AND STRUGGLE TO KEEP YOUR FAITH PURE AND CLEAN. Take Your cross every day and follow Him who has called you.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/21/2006 11:15 pm

In the sciptures I see two different groups of believers, the few who enter into the marrage supper of the lamb and the great mulitude who come out of the tribulation.
Those who are in Jesus Christ cant lose there salvation has Christ him self said I will not lose one of them.
It is also in the bible that people can be grafted in or out of the vine (the body of Christ)
So the saved can be grfted in or out of the Body, but that dosn't mean they arn't saved.
It would seem to me that those who make Jesus Lord of there lives, ie: die to them selves and live to serve and bring glory to God are in the body of Christ and will be raptured before the trib and enjoy the marrage supper of the lamb. (Read the leter to the church of philadelphia reverlation 3:1-13 note verse 10)
Those who believe but dont make Jesus Lord of there lives, I believe are saved but are not part of the body of Christ and will go through the trib.
It is that group I would say can lose there salvation, ie: if they believed but didnt commit to Christ and then decided that it didnt work for them so turn there backs on the Lord and go back to there old ways.


Indescribeable 67F
8057 posts
4/22/2006 12:11 am

Great post Dennis clearly stated and I totally agree. Hey, I owe you a thank you for warning me about a certain someone back in January. You know who. You were absolutely correct. Cheers!!!!

(¯`•♥•´¯) ¤`•.♥.•´ ¤ (¯`•♥•´¯)


odimma56 68F
188 posts
4/22/2006 2:21 pm

I DID NOT SAY THE WORKS SAVE, I SAID WE ARE SAVED FOR THE GOOD WORKS!!! WE ARE SAVED THROUGH THE WORK OF CHRIST FOR HIS GOOD WORKS. AND TO WORK OUT OUR SALVATION...TILL WE COME TO HEAVEN. WORD WORK IN THIS CONTECST DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN BARGEN OR GET SALVATION BY BEEING GOOD, NO, WE HAVE TO BE SAVED EVEN FROM OUR GOOD DEEDS.

I hope someone understand me or Bible!!!!
One can not get saved then go back to sinfull life and believe you go to heaven!!! You have to keep in Lord and work for your salvation to remain!!!


birdseye2 56F
152 posts
4/22/2006 8:09 pm

once save is not always save, cause the bible say the wages of sin is death. if you are save and filled with the holy spirit and fall short, you must pray and ask fogiveness, for we all fall short, but we are not to practice sin, like fornication paul say that should not be even name among us. in rev 22. Jesus said behold i come quickly and my reward is with me, i will give according to your works,you are the salt of the earth, and if the salt lose its favor it is therefore no good. So we must be always ready for Christ return, for no man knoweth when he shall return.


birdseye2 56F
152 posts
4/22/2006 8:12 pm

plus you can't serve two master. so if you have fallen weak, you can ask forgiveness, for he will forgive you.


odimma56 68F
188 posts
4/22/2006 10:13 pm

Let me explain this one's more. When we get to Christ, we are saved from our sin. What is that sin we have to be saved from? Sin that Adam cost by disobedience, sin that separates us from God.

God did carry that in Jesus and made us ok with Him, but we have to accept his work and become into personal relationship with Him, to be His children. On that very moment Our past sins are washed away.

When now being in awareness of God's Holy nature, with fear and tremblings we begin to follow the pattern He wants, no more like we want, that is the work.
(...comes the greater, and you go where you do not want)

No more sleeping with men/women, if not in marriage, no more drinking and having overnight parties and costing disgrace to oneself, drug using, coursing, dirty talks they are all washed away, and when being around such people who do not know Jesus as they personal saviour, to testify to them and show there is hope of better life.
(No adulterers, murderers, ext. inherit the kingdom of God)

Work for your salvation, If you do not separate yourself from the old life, you then go back to it.(Be Holy, because I am Holy)

I know there are people with doctrine, ones saved and ok.Don't sleep)I personally got saved in 1973 and after 4 yrs went away from Christ to this world and lived as sinful life as one ever can. I was scared if God takes my life away and was very aware, if dying I would have gone to Hell. God in His grate mercy helped me to return and I became renewed in Him 1985.
I know some people whom I call literal christians. They say I am born again and yet they have been seen in disco decks picking women to sleep with. They say,,..well its mans nature!!!! And God will understand and forgives, after all he has already forgiven all.

I have learned to work for my salvation. No more playing too close to this world. I start my days by prayers and thanks of Him who doesn't deny His work, even if we do.
Why you have to work for your salvation means, God has done His part, but you have to do yours by abiding in Him.
Just try, go into sin and see if you feel in peace with Him.(hypothetical, pls do not try.)


thirdmillennium 56M

4/23/2006 12:31 am

I have on occasion tried to offend God. It cannot be done.


thirdmillennium 56M

4/23/2006 12:41 am

Coming from a situation where I accepted Jesus Christ and was filled with the Holy Spirit when I was in Preschool, looking Back on it, I have never been without God. Even when I was unaware of God's Existence because my father was going through a long period of Athiesm, God was still there with me.

It is like being a Prince in a kingdom and unaware of the plight of my people. So every once in a while I sneak out of my Castle and dress like a pauper and get to the know the people in the kingdom.


odimma56 68F
188 posts
4/23/2006 7:20 am

1.John 5:18 We know that anyone born of God NOT CONTINUE to sin; the one who was born of God Keeps him safe.....21) Dear children keep yourselves from idols.

If you leave the important words of you twist the word of God and make fals doctrine. Sorry, but even born again can do sin, with thoughts and actions, different thing is if he continues to live in it. Somebody born again can live in adultry and that is sin done by awareness.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/23/2006 8:02 am

Yes a believer can sin, but what christ did on the cross payed for all sin past present and future, therefore those who are in Christ are made righteous, in spirit that is ie: no sin. but these flesh bodys of ours have sin in them, hence why we who have been made righteous in our spirit strugle against the flesh and its desires. The flesh body will perish and we will get a new spiritual body with out sin and the temptations that come with it.


geeman1058 66M

4/23/2006 5:23 pm

Lots of Bible quoting and sermon-giving here. Is anyone on here actually qualified to teach on this subject? Are any of you priests? Have you graduated from Seminary? Do you hold a Ph.D in some field of religion? If so, please state your credentials for all to see. If not, then all this talk is just the opinions of uneducated laypersons and will profit no-one. When I want answers to questions as important as this one, I go talk to someone who knows. And they have the credentials referenced above.


odimma56 68F
188 posts
4/24/2006 4:41 am

I grew up in Baptist church and have been in several Pentecostal churches, and none of them has thought me, needer I believe it, that one could over look the need of the Law to guide Christians.

Jesus Himself said I did not come to cancel the Law, I came to fulfill it. He himself was obeying the law as jewish should. If the Law is canceled and said we are sinless, and do not need to keep the law, then whole Finland and all the churches here are perished.

legalism is not good but needer is liberty, we need both of them in sense that Christ has made us free not to sin.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/24/2006 9:31 am

    Quoting geeman1058:
    Lots of Bible quoting and sermon-giving here. Is anyone on here actually qualified to teach on this subject? Are any of you priests? Have you graduated from Seminary? Do you hold a Ph.D in some field of religion? If so, please state your credentials for all to see. If not, then all this talk is just the opinions of uneducated laypersons and will profit no-one. When I want answers to questions as important as this one, I go talk to someone who knows. And they have the credentials referenced above.
While those with credentials have much to offer they are subject to error like anyone of us.
As far as quoting the bible, the scriptures speak for them selves.
Also God qualifys the called as opposed to calls the qualifed.
I dont like arguing but I enjoy a good debate, and somtimes through debate I might learn sometime.
I have a mind to think with and learn with and while I might lack some of the tools that those with credentials have and my spelling is really bad, that dosn't mean God can't teach and lead me to truths through scripture and life experiences.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/24/2006 10:24 am

When Jesus was asked what was the greatest commandment he replyed, the Greatest commandment is to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and the second greatest commandment it like it, love thy neahbour, all the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments.
Note the first 4 of the ten commandments are about honouring God and the last 6 about love towards thy fellow man.
It is not about working for salvation of course but rather if one has the holy spirit, the two greatest commandments should be evident in there lives as they are lead by the God of love.

Matthew 25

THE PARABLE OF THE TEN VIRGINS

Oil is used in the scriptures to represent the holy spirit. This parable is a warning not to get lax on our relationship with God.
This is what I was saying before about those who commit to Christ no matter what will enter into the kingdom of heaven with him, but those who are foolish and get lax/don't keep watch, will be told I never knew you, how ever out of the three parables this is the one that dosn't include eternal punishment, so because they didn't keep watch they are not a part of the body of Christ but they will be saved as one escaping through the flames.

1."At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

2. Five of them were foolish and five were wise.

3. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.

4. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.

5. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6. "At midnight the cry rang out: `Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

7. "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.

8. The foolish ones said to the wise, `Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

9. "`No,' they replied, `there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

10. "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11. "Later the others also came. `Sir! Sir!' they said. `Open the door for us!'

12. "But he replied, `I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

13. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

THE PARABLE OF THE TALENTS

This one is about not hiding the light of life we were given but to go out and win souls for Christ, ie muliply what we were given (Life)

14. "Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them.

15. To one he gave five talents [1] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey.

16. The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more.

17. So also, the one with the two talents gained two more.

18. But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

19. "After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them.

20. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. `Master,' he said, `you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

21. "His master replied, `Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

22. "The man with the two talents also came. `Master,' he said, `you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

23. "His master replied, `Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

24. "Then the man who had received the one talent came. `Master,' he said, `I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed.

25. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

26. "His master replied, `You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed?

27. Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28. "`Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

29. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him.

30. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

THE PARABLE OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS

This one is about Love the Lord thy God and love thy neahbour, also the parable of the talents requires love for the lost. hmmmmm... seems to me that a lack of love for God and our fellow man is what will cost us our salvation even if one dose believe.

31. "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

32. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

33. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34. "Then the King will say to those on his right, `Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

35. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,

36. I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37. "Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?

38. When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?

39. When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40. "The King will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41. "Then he will say to those on his left, `Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

42. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,

43. I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44. "They also will answer, `Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45. "He will reply, `I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46. "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


odimma56 68F
188 posts
4/24/2006 11:30 am

I THINK THE PARABLE OF TEN VIRGINS IS A PICTURE OF CHRISTIANS, The OTHERS ARE TRULY BORN AGAIN AND IN LOVE FOR CHRIST, THE OTHERS ARE SO CALLED CHRISTIANS, WHO HAVE NEVER KNOWN CHRIST AS THEIR LORD.
THE FOOLISH ONES ARE THE ONES WHO HANG AROUND CHRISTIANS LIKE THE MIXRACED PEOPLE WHO LEFT FROM EGYT TO FOLLOW ISRAELITES WITHOUT KNOWING THE GOD TRULY. THE PARABEL OF CHEAP AND GOATS IS THE SAME PICTURE.
(THOSE MIX PEOPLE WERE THE ONES WHO POLUTED THE MINDS OF ISRAELITES ON DESERT TO TURN AGAINST GOD.)

PARABEL OF TEN TALENTS IS A PICTURE HOW GOD HAS GIVEN AS A TRUST OF HIS WORK AND GIVEN ABILITIES WHICH SOME PEOPLE HIDE AND NEVER DO ANYTHING FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.
What was your point in these parabels?? I did not get it well.


geeman1058 66M

4/24/2006 5:02 pm

Isaiah you are right about "qualifying the called". Bullseye on that one. You are absolutely correct. As far as the scriptures speaking for themselves, I wouldn't be so sure. If that were true, wouldn't the scriptures be saying the same thing to everyone? But yet everyone who reads them comes up with something a little different. Is God the author of confusion? That means that either God is wrong or we are wrong. The only reason there are so many hundreds of denominations is that nobody can agree on what the Bible "clearly" says. If it were clear, then everyone would be on the same page, no? I still think the higher up the religious hierarchy you go, the more likely you are to get a good and defensible explanation of an issue, especially one as important as this one. Our very eternal lives depend on it. And yes, while human, the higher-ups can err, but who are you going to trust more, someone who is right 95% of the time, or someone who is right half the time? And think about this, too, if you have a minute. Think about what happened to the second-highest ranking angel in heaven, Lucifer. He was second only to Michael in glory and perfect beauty. And he committed just ONE sin, and was cast out of heaven and into hell. If his position could be changed so radically, I think ours must be very tenuous indeed. I am not intending to start any argument. I just want to say that verses can be found to support just about anything you like. That is why a topic like this is so dangerous for us to go it alone. For example, I found:

James 2: "What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, 'Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,' but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." etc.

In other words, deeds are not a replacement or substitute for faith, but rather the very manifestation of that faith. Having faith without deeds is like having a fire which gives no light. The light is the natural product of the fire, just as deeds are the natural product of faith. And in the end, there are many verses which talk about the judgment, and they all say that we will be judged by what we have done.

John 15: "Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. ....If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Luke 9: Jesus replied: “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.”

2 Peter 2: ….”If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit”.
2 Peter 3: “Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.”

Jude: “For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are Godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.”

Jer 17: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the Lord.”

Ezek 33: “If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it.”

Rev 2: …”Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lamp stand from its place.”

Like 21: “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness, and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you like a trap.”

(A trap? For people who have nothing to worry about???)

1 Cor 9-10: “Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly. I do not fight like a man beating the air. No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.”

“So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!”

Apparently, Paul does not share the popular view that what he has is a SURE THING, something GUARANTEED that cannot be taken away. If Paul was worried, then maybe we should be too.

James 1: “For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone, but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.”
James 4: “Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.”

1 John 3: “No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or known Him.”

Gal 6: “Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.”

(Remember, this was spoken to people who were BELIEVERS and had been SAVED.)


geeman1058 66M

4/24/2006 5:11 pm

Absolutely right, Sapphire! "Faith without works is dead." And also, "They honor me with their lips, but their heart is far from me." Faith gives works the way fire gives light. If anyone says that they have faith but don't have or need works, they lie. They have no faith. Works is the thermometer by which faith is measured. It is not we who do the works, but God acting through us.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/25/2006 10:41 am

geeman1058, I do agree with you, thats why I wrote that those with credentials have much to offer, was just trying to point out not to rely on them for what you believe, but on Jesus-the Word, and yes he can use others in our lives educated or not, sometimes even out of the mouth of babes as it is written.

Jer 17: “Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the Lord.”

In this verse is included a warning against relying on the flesh, I am not saying that you do or that we should not be educated, but am just pointing out that to say the educated (builing up of the mind ie flesh) have more relevence in what they say over some one who is not but may be lead by the holy spirit is doing just that, relying on the flesh.
Have you also considered that sometimes God might be trying to show us something in scripture or in life but we are to busy trying to figure it out in our own strength to hear what the holy spirit is saying.

As far as all the different denominations and there varying beliefs, thats why I don't affiliate myself with any denomination, I am free to worship God in any church and not bound to a certain theology, I read the scriptures for truth and if I don't understand something I ask God to reveal it to me, He said if anyone lacks wisdom, ask and I will freely give it.
Sometimes he will use others and sometime he will teach it to me through life experiances. It's the latter I find are the best learned truths.
Yes one can read what they want into the scriptures.
The problem I find is when one focuses on one verse and bases there theology for a given topic on that one verse, God tells us in his word to take into consideration the whole cousel of God.
Jesus said they volume of the book is written of me, Jesus came not to condem but to save, to show love to the lost, to bring life.
Comes back to those two greatest commandments on which all the laws and all the prophets hang.

“Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation, drunkenness, and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you like a trap.”
All these things will quench the holy spirit in our lives and one will become distant from God, like in the parable of the virgins, the bridegroom came but they were not ready(refined, transformed into the image of Christ). So they will go through the tribulation.

In the previous post I was trying to point out there are two different groups who will be saved, those in Christ and those who come out of the tribulation.
Remember the bible tells us that FEW will enter into the marrage supper of the lamb but a GREAT MULTITUDE will come out of the tribulation, two different groups.

odimma56, you and tropical were debating on law verses grace and thats what I was trying to point out about what Jesus said were the two greatest commandments, ALL the law and ALL the prophets hang on these two commandments, in the parables of the Talents and the sheep and goats, the ones without love (for God or man) were the wicked servents, in the Talents parable they had believed and recieved from god but didn't give back to God ie: the believer should become a living spring of water overflowing into others lives.
In the old testament it was conceiled, in the new revealed.

2Cr 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

2Cr 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

geeman1058, you said to think about how Lucifer fell with one sin, well it was the same for man.
We were seperated as enemys of God and yet while we were enemys, God chose to pay the penalty for our sins, Jesus died so we could live with him.
You see it is all about love, without faith one cannot please God and therefore will not have love, without love how can one do the works of God which are all about love thy Lord thy God and love thy neabour, ie: die to our selves for the glory of God and to serve others to build them up and to win the lost for Christ.
So I also agree with you that faith without works is dead, that works are the fruit of ones faith, they cant help them selves but love god and love thy neahbour as the God of love indwells them.

All those scriptures you posted show we should be very concerned.

But also remeber Jesus said he would not loose one of those given to him, the ones that God knew before the foundation of the world and predestined as first fruits.
It would seem to me that those who are firm in christ are firm because of faith in him and will have works as a result of that faith (Remember before the law was even given God credited rightousness to abraham based on his faith ie: believed what God told him, not what he thought, or did in the world)

To be firm in Christ is to believe (Faith, Trust, follow, obey his commandments) in him.

From romans 7 and 8 we can see that it is the renewed mind and reborn spirit that loves God and seeks to please him, they still sin but not diliberatly or using the grace of God as licence to sin. Paul is talking about his stuggle with sin in the flesh, and says who will rescue me from this body of death, praise be to Jesus.
It is those who do not love(there is that love again) God, who have there minds set on the sinful desires that will die, they may even claim to know God but use they grace of God as a licence to sin because thats where there interests are, there hearts are far from him.
They despise his rebukes and warnings in the scriptures, so then were they predestined? salvation is offered to all and the warnings go for both the predestined and those arnt.

Romans 7
14. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25. I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Romans 8
1.There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
3. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
8. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Sonship Through the Spirit
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh.
13. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16. The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17. and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.


geeman1058 66M

4/25/2006 2:46 pm

Thank you, Daddysgirl, for aharing your knowledge. If anyone knows how vital this issue is then surely you do. Your opinion carries much weight with me. The rest is fluff. I think one of the greatest dangers of this site is that many uninformed people are trying to force their greivous errors onto others and lead them astray. There is much damage being done every day here, and my heart goes out to anyone who acts on most of the advice given in these pages. A lot of it is fun and harmless stuff, and a great way to enjoy oneself, but topics like this one do terrible harm to many, as they blindly assume that the posts are written by someone who knows something, which is generally not true. I freely admit that I am no expert in any area of religion (economics and finance are my fields) but many here do not admit this like I do.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/26/2006 9:24 am

daddysgirl316, Im glad you enjoyed what I posted, what you posted is also very good, showing we need to be very vigilant in our walk with God.

Who has understood the mind of the Lord, or instructed him as his counselor? Whom did the Lord consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge or showed him the path of understanding?

You posted the exact verse for the reason I was showing the different groups (those in Christ and the multitude who serve God day and night) and avoiding saying a direct yes or no but leaving room for for the the (all knowing) to decide who will live and who will die.

also "I will bless whom I bless and curse whom I curse."

and "If your own heart condems you, let God be the judge of that."


Isaiah1975 49M

4/27/2006 8:04 am

I thought I would post these scriptures that deal with salvation for us to consider, after reading these scriptures it seems to me salvation is by faith in Christ, but also repentance is requierd, this may be on a daily bases, of course this requires having love for God and others.
Also you will read that Godly sorrow brings repentance and salvation but worldy sorrow brings death, like in the parable of the sower when the seeds fell amongst the thorns, they started to grow but were choked by all the worrys and cares of the world.

Luke 3:1-14
1 In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene-- 2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3 He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4 As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet: "A voice of one calling in the desert, 'Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him. 5 Every valley shall be filled in, every mountain and hill made low. The crooked roads shall become straight, the rough ways smooth. 6 And all mankind will see God's salvation.'" 7 John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 9 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire." 10 "What should we do then?" the crowd asked. 11 John answered, "The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same." 12 Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?" 13 "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. 14 Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely--be content with your pay."

Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3 He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4 So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way. 5 When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6 So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly. 7 All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.'" 8 But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount." 9 Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Luke 1:67-80
67 His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied: 68 "Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come and has redeemed his people. 69 He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David 70 (as he said through his holy prophets of long ago), 71 salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us-- 72 to show mercy to our fathers and to remember his holy covenant, 73 the oath he swore to our father Abraham: 74 to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve him without fear 75 in holiness and righteousness before him all our days. 76 And you, my child, will be called a prophet of the Most High; for you will go on before the Lord to prepare the way for him, 77 to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins, 78 because of the tender mercy of our God, by which the rising sun will come to us from heaven 79 to shine on those living in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the path of peace." 80 And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.

Romans 1:16-18
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Romans 11:1-32
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." 9 And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them. 10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever." 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 13:11-14
11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

2 Corinthians 7:5-11
5 For when we came into Macedonia, this body of ours had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn--conflicts on the outside, fears within. 6 But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him. He told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever. 8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it--I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while-- 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.

2 Corinthians 1:3-6
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. 5 For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 6 If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer.

2 Corinthians 6:1-10
1 As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. 2 For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." 2 I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation. 3 We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. 4 Rather, as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: in great endurance; in troubles, hardships and distresses; 5 in beatings, imprisonments and riots; in hard work, sleepless nights and hunger; 6 in purity, understanding, patience and kindness; in the Holy Spirit and in sincere love; 7 in truthful speech and in the power of God; with weapons of righteousness in the right hand and in the left; 8 through glory and dishonor, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as impostors; 9 known, yet regarded as unknown; dying, and yet we live on; beaten, and yet not killed; 10 sorrowful, yet always rejoicing; poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything.

Ephesians 1:3-14
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 6:10-18
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. 13 Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. 14 Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, 15 and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. 16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/27/2006 10:16 am

Well Im going to share with you all the lesson and truth concerning this matter that Thee All mighty and Amazing Lord Jesus has just completed in my life, I am absolutly amazed at how and what God has just showen me from putting the scriptures in the previous post.

I will spare you all the details of my life but will give the basic over veiw of it.

About 6 years ago I turned to God after forgetting him when I accepted the lord at the age of 11, At 13 I stopped going to church and got involved with the wrong people and things, like drugs alcohol and all the rest that goes along with that sort of life.

When I turned back to God I really wanted to make a stand for Jesus and truth, and so I did, God increased my knowlage alot (before I was nieve and ignorant) and when ever I had an opportunaty would tell people about the Lord and was quite affective at it as the holy spirit was at work, One athiest belived after 2 hours talking.

Any way becuse of that it is no supprise what happend next, Satan brought everyone againts me with Lies and rumours, I endured a lot of rudicule even from people I didnt know and I suddenly found I had no freinds. At the time was living with my family due to a motorbike accident which left me unable to walk for a year or so. I thought at least I can trust my family, but they were like the rest. The end result was I had no one who I could trust and no friends, I was alone for about 2 years while putting up with ridicule.
Suicide crept into my thinking but because of God I was't about to go down that path, and so I pleaded with God to end my life while I was asleep, but I would wake up in the morning with all the pain and dread of another day.
All this left me with some big problems, A completly broken and downcast heart, I withdrew from people and isolated my self and I turned back to drugs for(false)comfort and escape after having givin them up, that was how things were for a few years, in that time God lead me into security work(I had no choice due to a bad leg from the accident) and this forced me to do the one thing I was trying not to do, deal with and confront people, and the ridicule keep comming. During this time I didn't turn my back on God but because of all that had happend all the pain started to turn into anger and bitterness towards people, the anger and bitterness keeped growing and yet at the same time I found God still there reaching out to others through me who were down and out like I was.
The last few years the riddicule has stopped for the most part but the anger and bitterness now included unforgiveness and due to these I started to grumble and complain and started to dought that things would get better I could not see the end of it all, my job has been making it all worse as is can be very stresfull and sometime includes sleep depravation.
Alot of the pain is still there and I have found my self doughting God that he would heal me and that he had my best interest at heart and of course the grumbling and complaining.
I found my self getting afraid as somehow I senced I had fallan out of the grace of God, I couldn't figure it out and that also lead me to dought more.
When I was reading through the scriptures I posted just before this one The holy spirit keeped drawing me to the part about Godly sorrow and worldly sorrow, and I found my self asking the Lord what is the difference of the two, Finaly The Holy Spirit made it plain to me, I had Godly sorrow for all the grumbling and lack of faith but also I had worldly sorrow, I was focusing on all the problems and woes I had been through and could see ahead of me and this was causing me to dought God and grumble and complain, the very resons I had godly sorrow.
You see I was starting to dought and had fallen out of faith,(salvation is by faith) It felt like God wasn't on my side and was no longer walking in the grace of God, no wonder I was starting to get worried.
That is the dangerous place to be.
How's that! after all that and through the lonlyness I joined this site and discusions, and this topic came up, and God has just used these past years and this topic to teach me a lesson I will never forget, Believe Believe Believe and stop doughting, stop focusing on the world and its problems or I will be chocked by them, No matter what I go through I need to stand in faith (shield of faith against the lies and doughts of the evil one)and use the sword of the spirit(the word, the promises of God)
So yes salvation is by faith not works, if one is in faith they can't lose there salvation as through that faith the grace of God will be poured out in ones life and have the strenght of God to stand, so why all the warnings in scripture about being cut off, because when one dose not believe and doughts as the Good and awesome Lord has just showen me can happen from worldy sorrow(focusing on the problems and woes instead of the promises of God) you are then not in faith but doughting God.
So believe in God that he has it all under control and on his promises, even in the midst of turmoil and do not dought and complain and you will stand firm in His Grace.
I was doughting and on a slippry slope but all praise to God he didn't let me go.
Its not going to be easy but I am not going to dought like I was, by standing in faith on his word he will strenghten me and give me victory over all problems in this life.

I just remembered a dream God gave me in the midst of all that and now I know how it applys.

In the dream I had a house and went to walk from the yard into the house, as I was approching the house it was on swampy ground and swaying side to side but it keeped hitting against a huge rock bigger than the house, this rock was stopping it from tipping over completly.
God told me that I hadn't built on the foundation of the rock and so the house was unsable, but the rock was in my life and stopping me from completly losing it.
Now I understand why, I was doughting and not standing in faith.

Believe Believe Believe

Thank you Lord Jesus, you have showen me again that you are Lord and teach all things, thank you for your great mercy, as you could have left me blind and in unbelief and cut me off, but instead you have showen that you able to save and that you are great in mercy and love and right at this moment through this discusion have caused me to seek out the truth of the matter and used my life as an example to teach and show me the error of my ways and have restored me to your grace through faith.


Isaiah1975 49M

4/28/2006 8:05 am

daddysgirl316, Praise the Lord Jesus indeed!
Thank you for standing with me The devil is indeed a lier.
Im excited too, and your right if we take our eyes off him we will sink, thats what I did, and it wasn't suddenly but over a few years, but like when peter begain to sink the Lord reached out and pulled me up.
Like you I wanted to just get away from it all but even then somehow I knew God wanted me where I am, I keeped serching but my carnal mind couldn't quite figure it out even though now it seems obvious once the Holy spirit revealed it to me.

“though He slays me, I will praise Him”

It is amazing isnt it, how God can use the troubles of this world to bring us closer to him.

"blessed is he who falls on the Rock and is broken, but woe to him on whom the rock falls and is crushed."

I think the same probably happened to peter, remeber when Jesus said to him that satan had asked to sift him, Jesus didn't say he would stop that, but would pray that peter would stand the test of his faith.
Praise the lord that he stands with us and inteceds for us.