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RockyG666 62M
1953 posts
1/22/2017 11:28 am

Last Read:
2/16/2017 7:52 am

biblical questions and the transfiguration of jesus

I have been going to a bible study in mark lately, and we came across a few things that confused us all. maybe someone here can help?

I have always been a little confused by the whole transfiguration thing anyways. but we have an old book by Wesley that was obviously recycled and reprinted lately. it asks some good questions that we can't answer biblically:

how did the apostles KNOW who moses and Elijah were when they saw them with jesus? they didn't have name tags on or introduce themselves? also, more important:
where were moses and Elijah BEFORE the transfiguration? according to the bible, they should have been asleep and NOT in heaven until Jesus' 2nd coming? how did they show up at all?

why did jesus choose the 3 apostles that he did? or NOT choose the ones he did not.

there were more questions, but these were the important ones.

I have sent a copy of this post as a question to moody radio's Saturday show, Open Line. I will post their response when I get it.


may7749 40F

1/23/2017 5:49 am

It is a good question, i think it is a vision………


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
1/23/2017 8:20 am

I am looking for the good answers


Urban_Hermit 68M
317 posts
1/23/2017 11:05 pm

Well I think obviously they were addressing each other by name. Not hard. lol

Judgement Day will be interesting.


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
1/24/2017 8:03 am

I have been asking this question to a lot of people, and that is the best answer, I've gotten so far.


Urban_Hermit 68M
317 posts
1/25/2017 3:52 am

Hi Rocky,
I just noticed the other question as to why Jesus chose the 3 He did. I think they were His 'inner circle' of friends. They seemed to be the most zealous and had the greatest affection for Him hungering to learn, so He chose them. You'll have to research this as I have not, but I think the same three were with Jesus on other occasions as well without the others being too close by but I'll stand corrected if someone Biblically explains it differently.

I'll be interested to hear what the listeners of the radio show have to say.

God bless.

Judgement Day will be interesting.


Katididaustralia 65F
93 posts
2/12/2017 1:25 am

Hi Rocky,
I noticed your questioning. I know that you seek God and so wanted to help your understanding.
Interestingly, you got part way in answering you question....
"where were moses and Elijah BEFORE the transfiguration? according to the bible, they should have been asleep and NOT in heaven until Jesus' 2nd coming? how did they show up at all? "
As with Enoch who is described as having been "taken by God" (Gen 5:24) and "transferred so as not to see death" (Heb 11:5), we know that no one has 'gone to Heaven' except The Christ. (John 3:13)
So, Moses and Elijah were "asleep in death" and we know that "the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all..." (Eccl 9:4)
Jesus declared: “That the dead are raised up, even Moses disclosed, in the account about the thornbush, when he calls Jehovah ‘the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob.’ He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.” (Luke 20:27, 37, 38 ) By saying these words, Jesus confirmed that from God’s viewpoint the long-dead Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob still lived in God’s memory. Like Job, they await the end of their “compulsory service,” their sleep in death. (Job 14:14) In God’s new world, they will be resurrected.
Of further interest is that only the annointed 'brothers of Christ' will form the 144,000 priests and judges who are resurrected in Heaven and so we will have the opportunity to meet the faithful men and women of the past in the New World to come. What a wonderful time that will be.

Further to your inquiry,....Just before the transfiguration, Jesus and his disciples were in the region of Caesarea Philippi, the present-day village of Banyas. (Mr 8:27) It is unlikely that Christ and the apostles departed from this vicinity or region when going to the “lofty mountain.” (Mr 9:2) Mount Tabor has been viewed as the traditional site from about the fourth century C.E., but lying about 70 km (40 mi) SSW of Caesarea Philippi, it seems an improbable location. Whereas Mount Hermon, on the other hand, is only about 25 km (15 mi) NE of Caesarea Philippi. It rises to a height of 2,814 m (9,232 ft) above sea level and would therefore be “a lofty mountain.” (Mt 17:1) Hence, the transfiguration may have taken place on some spur of Mount Hermon. This is the view of many modern scholars, though the Bible’s silence on the matter leaves the exact location uncertain.
The transfiguration probably took place at night, for the apostles “were weighed down with sleep.” (Lu 9:32) At night the event would be more vivid, and they did spend the night on the mountain, for it was not until the next day that they descended. (Lu 9:37) Just how long the transfiguration lasted, however, the Bible does not say.

Some critics have endeavored to class the transfiguration as simply a dream. However, Peter, James, and John would not logically all have had exactly the same dream. Jesus himself called what took place a “vision” (Mt 17:9), but not a mere illusion. Christ was actually there, though Moses and Elijah, who were dead, were not literally present. They were represented in vision. The Greek word used for “vision” at Matthew 17:9 is hoʹra·ma, also rendered “sight.” (Ac 7:31) It does not imply unreality, as though the observers were laboring under a delusion. Nor were they insensible to what occurred, for they were fully awake when witnessing the transfiguration. With their literal eyes and ears they actually saw and heard what took place at that time.—Lu 9:32.

As Moses and Elijah were being separated from Jesus, Peter, “not realizing what he was saying,” suggested the erecting of three tents, one each for Jesus, Moses, and Elijah. (Lu 9:33) But as the apostle spoke, a cloud formed (Lu 9:34), evidently (as at the tent of meeting in the wilderness) symbolizing Jehovah’s presence there on the mountain of the transfiguration. (Ex 40:34-38 ) From out of the cloud there came Jehovah’s voice, saying: “This is my Son, the one that has been chosen. Listen to him.” (Lu 9:35) Years later, with reference to the transfiguration, Peter identified the heavenly voice as that of “God the Father.” (2Pe 1:17, 18 ) Whereas in the past God had spoken through prophets, he now indicated that he would do so through his Son.—Ga 3:24; Heb 1:1-3.

The apostle Peter viewed the transfiguration as a marvelous confirmation of the prophetic word, and by having been an eyewitness of Christ’s magnificence, he was able to acquaint his readers “with the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (2Pe 1:16, 19) The apostle had experienced the fulfillment of Christ’s promise that some of his followers would “not taste death at all until first they see the kingdom of God already come in power.” (Mr 9:1) The apostle John may also have alluded to the transfiguration at John 1:14.

Jesus told his three apostles: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead.” (Mt 17:9) They did refrain from then reporting what they saw to anyone, apparently even to the other apostles. (Lu 9:36) While descending the mountain, the three apostles discussed among themselves what Jesus meant by “this rising from the dead.” (Mr 9:10) One current Jewish religious teaching was that Elijah must appear before the resurrection of the dead that would inaugurate the Messiah’s reign. So, the apostles inquired: “Why, then, do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus assured them that Elijah had come, and they perceived that he spoke of John the Baptizer.—Mt 17:10-13.

The transfiguration, it seems, served to fortify Christ for his sufferings and death, while it also comforted his followers and strengthened their faith. It showed that Jesus had God’s approval, and it was a foreview of his future glory and Kingdom power. It presaged the presence of Christ, when his kingly authority would be complete.

I hope this helps your understanding Rocky...it is such an interesting subject.
Yours,
Katidid.


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
2/12/2017 12:50 pm

I wasn't able to follow most of your reasoning here? the 144,000 priests and judges sounds like jehova witness protocol, but NOT the bible? and my question still seems unanswered. I have RE-written open line at moody, I guess there is no guarantee that they will answer by email. but I specifically asked them to this time.

thank you for your help. god bless


Katididaustralia 65F
93 posts
2/13/2017 10:25 pm

I am in agreement with Urban on these questions you have rocky.
Matthew 17:3 And look! there appeared to them Moses and Elijah conversing with him.
As we know from John, not all the things Jesus said and did are recorded and so in this instance it is left to us to 'read between the lines' so to speak. One can assume therefore that if Jesus was conversing with Elijah and Moses in the vision that their names were used.
Also, John for e.g. is called 'the Apostle Jesus was especially fond of' and we know that Peter had a great questioning mind and that Jesus often address him when teaching. One other occasions Andrew, James, Peter and John were with him etc....let me check some Scriptures for you.

Jesus wanted those people to see him, not as a source of mere physical food, but as a spiritual provision from God, as the one whose life and death as a man would make eternal life possible for others. So he gave an illustration comparing himself to manna, the bread that came down from heaven in Moses’ day. When some objected, he used a vivid illustration, explaining that it was necessary to partake of his flesh and his blood in order to attain life. It was at this point that the objections became insistent. Some said: “This speech is shocking; who can listen to it?” Many of Jesus’ own disciples decided to quit following him.(John 6:48-60, 66) What would Peter do? He too must have been baffled by Jesus’ speech. He did not yet grasp that Jesus must die in order to carry out God’s will. Was Peter tempted to slink off like those fickle disciples who left Jesus that day? No; something important set Peter apart from those men. What was it? Jesus turned to his apostles and said: “You do not want to go also, do you?” (John 6:67) He addressed the 12, but it was Peter who spoke up. It was often so. Peter may have been the oldest of them. In any case, he was certainly the most outspoken of the group; rarely, it seems, did Peter hesitate to say what was on his mind. In this case, what was on his mind was this beautiful and memorable statement: “Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life.” (John 6:68 ) Do not those words touch your heart? Peter’s faith in Jesus had helped him to build a priceless quality—loyalty. Peter saw clearly that Jesus was the only Savior Jehovah had provided and that Jesus saved by means of his sayings—his teachings about the Kingdom of God. Peter knew that even if there were some things that puzzled him, there was nowhere else to go if he wanted God’s favor and the blessing of everlasting life.

Mark 13:3+4 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

Often Peter, James, and John were mentioned as being together in close company with Christ. For example, these three were the only ones present with Christ in the mount of transfiguration (Mt 17:1, 2), were the only apostles invited into the house to witness the resurrection of Jairus’ daughter (Lu 8:51), and were the ones closest to Jesus in Gethsemane while he was praying that last night (Mr 14:32-34). Peter, James, and John, together with Andrew, were the ones that asked Jesus when the foretold destruction of Jerusalem’s temple would be and what would be the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. (Mr 13:3, 4) James is always mentioned along with his brother John, and in the majority of instances he is mentioned first. This may indicate he was the older of the two.—Mt 4:21; 10:2; 17:1; Mr 1:19, 29; 3:17; 5:37; 9:2; 10:35, 41; 13:3; 14:33; Lu 5:10; 6:14; 8:51; 9:28, 54; Ac 1:13.

Though Peter is associated with his brother Andrew in the apostolic lists, the record of events more frequently pairs him with John, both before and after Jesus’ death and resurrection. (Lu 22:8; Joh 13:24; 20:2; 21: 7; Ac 3:1; 8:14; compare Ac 1:13; Ga 2:9.) Whether this was due to natural friendship and affinity or because they were assigned by Jesus to work together (compare Mr 6: 7) is not made known.

The Gospel accounts record more of Peter’s statements than of any of the other 11. He was clearly of a dynamic nature, not diffident or hesitant. This doubtless caused him to speak up first or to express himself where others remained silent. He raised questions that resulted in Jesus’ clarifying and amplifying illustrations. (Mt 15:15; 18:21; 19:27-29; Lu 12:41; Joh 13:36-38; compare Mr 11:21-25.) At times he spoke impulsively, even impetuously. He was the one who felt he had to say something on seeing the vision of the transfiguration. (Mr 9:1-6; Lu 9:33) By his somewhat flustered remark as to the worthwhileness of being there and his offering to build three tents, he apparently was suggesting that the vision (in which Moses and Elijah were now separating from Jesus) should not end but continue on. The night of the final Passover, Peter at first strongly objected to Jesus’ washing his feet, and then, on being reproved, wanted him to wash his head and hands also. (Joh 13:5-10) It may be seen, however, that Peter’s expressions basically were born of active interest and thought, coupled with strong feeling. That they are included in the Bible record is evidence of their worth, even though at times they reveal certain human weaknesses of the speaker.

Hope these help Rocky. I am thinking that Andrew, Peter, James and John, apart from possibly being favoured in friendship by Jesus, probably showed qualities possibly more outstanding than the other Apostles. This being just a surmise on my part but from my own experience with the Ministerial Servants today, they all display the qualities as spoken of by Paul that are needed requirements for a Ministerial Servant but some have outstanding qualities that set them apart from each other....individual personal qualities that come to the fore.

Yours,
Katidid.


Katididaustralia 65F
93 posts
2/14/2017 1:00 am

PS Rocky,....I am interested to know why you say, above,....." the 144,000 priests and judges sounds like jehova witness protocol, but NOT the bible?"
Rev 7:4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
Rev 14:1-5 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads and I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps and they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Since the figure is mentioned three separate times in Rev. we need to acknowledge its implied importance in God's Word.
Even if you suppose that it is just a sort of conglomerate figure use, it also implies a limited number of anointed ones who will serve with Christ in the Heavens.
Rev 5:9+10 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”

Yours,
Katidid.


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
2/14/2017 1:47 pm

thank you Katie, but I am NOT going to do a second in-depth study to try to answer a question that was asked by the Wesley study at my first study? if I was wrong about the origin of the 144 thing. I apologize.


Katididaustralia 65F
93 posts
2/14/2017 4:05 pm

Oh,...I just wondered why you say the 144,000 isn't the Bible Rocky. Nullus Anxietus.
Katidid.


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
2/15/2017 8:17 am

i looked it up in revelation. i was wrong. sorry.

i am wondering now if there is another account of the transfiguration in another gospel that addresses how it was known that it was moses and elijiah?

again, this is one of many questions asked by the wesley study.

i can't get all the way through your answers digitally, it is TOO much
thank you


Sojourner06 58M
1767 posts
2/15/2017 10:39 am

    Quoting RockyG666:
    I wasn't able to follow most of your reasoning here? the 144,000 priests and judges sounds like jehova witness protocol, but NOT the bible? and my question still seems unanswered. I have RE-written open line at moody, I guess there is no guarantee that they will answer by email. but I specifically asked them to this time.

    thank you for your help. god bless
Hi Rocky.

And somehow you are right. The 144.000 is mentioned in the Bible along with a crowd of thousands - the crowd that JW forget.

Kenzo once wrote that you can find the writings of Katie at the site of JW.

Blessings



Mogens

I Can Explain It To You, But I Can’t Understand It For You

Good News For Christian Man ABP

"REVELATION"


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
2/15/2017 1:14 pm

i found a heading in my NIV that said "the 144,000" in revelation, I did not read all about it and understand, but it was there nonetheless


Katididaustralia 65F
93 posts
2/16/2017 12:22 am

Hi again Rocky,

See these Scriptures mate....but it simply says that they 'conversed'. So you must read between the lines.

Mt 17:1-9;
Mr 9:2-10;
Lu 9:28-36

Yours,
Katidid.

PS....we don't 'forget' the Great Crowd' as it is suggested above. I am a member of this group.


RockyG666 62M
1357 posts
2/16/2017 7:52 am

thanks Katie, god bless