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exposing the false teaching of oneness pentecostalism The Word “WITH” in John 17 In Jn.17 Jesus asks the Father to “Glorify me together with Yourself, with the glory I had before the world began.” Jesus is about to complete his mission on earth and is emphatically stating and remembering something of his past… two personal pronouns are used, showing one person speaking to another person. The word “with” couples two subjects, it express more than one, I and you. It is the asking about sharing the same glory with the true God from eternity past. Glorify me together with yourself. Here is a person presently speaking to another person. Recalling the past “I had in your presence before the world was.” He is referring to something he shared before time began. So if the is not consciously and really there in the past, then what is he talking about? He would be lying asking for something that was not ever his. And if he was not there how can we understand the Father was there. After all, according to Oneness these both are roles of the one God. Gen.1 tells us the first thing created was the heavens and the earth. If Jesus had glory with the Father before the world was, then He pre-existed as God- for only God existed at that time. Therefore it is impossible for him to be a creature. He became a creature through the virgin birth by taking on human flesh to house his Spirit that was God.. Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting” (Ps 90:2; 103:17) The relationship of the to the Father transcends time, it did not have its beginning in Bethlehem. Notice: God the Father is saying the one from eternity will come forth to him- whose going forth from eternity showing the concept of the Eternity of God the . Again showing there are two. As Barnes puts it “Eternity belongs to God, not God to eternity.” “It declares the eternal “going-forth,” or Generation of the .” “The Generation of the from the Father is an Eternal Generation, before all time, and now, though not in time, yet in eternity still.” The plain antithesis of this clause, “come forth out of thee” (from Bethlehem), shows that the eternal generation of the is meant (from Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary) The Ruler (king) of Israel, has His goings forth reaching back into eternity, now is to find himself among man beginning at Bethlehem. In the fulness of time he would be born of a woman. Certainly to take the position that this eternal one is only a manifestation destroys the whole concept of the incarnation, God with man. So when the Father said to the “Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever” (Ps 45:6) It is understood as his possession forever. It is an eternal statement. A.T. Robertson is probably the greatest Greek scholar America has ever produced renders this verse in John 17 “by the side of thyself” as the literal rendering of the language. Jesus in Jn.17 is asking for restoration of the glory he shared before he was incarnate, what he commonly shared before anything was created. This is a statement of his deity as well. Robertson says this is actual conscious existence at the Fathers side. And we see the Father does give him all that he had before after his body is raised from the dead. Mt.28:18-19 all authority in heaven and earth is given to him as was written of him in Ps 2  -9 “I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me, 'You are My , today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron; you shall dash them to pieces like a potter's vessel.’” This is what is declared of the after the resurrection in Acts 13:32-34 “And we declare to you glad tidings-- that promise which was made to the fathers. “God has fulfilled this for us their , in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My , today I have begotten You.' “And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'The begotten proves it does not mean a birth but something much different. As Heb. 1:5-6 “For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My , today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a ”? But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” This shows the is worshipped in the same way the Father is by his creatures. That he has a unique relationship with God unlike any other. Again for this to occur it takes more than one, for a relationship is between two of different identities who are conscious: Father and . But this relationship as we have already read did not begin on earth but continued on earth, for it existed before He came to the earth. According to the Scriptures Christ did not become the in time, not by his birth, his baptism or resurrection. He was eternally the . The “today I have begotten you” is a timeless declaration of Jesus being the from all eternity. Jesus DID NOT BECOME THE from the resurrection. This would contradict the whole revelation of the New Testament concerning Christ's relation to the Father. As Paul writes “And declared the of God with power according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection of the dead” (Rom.1:4). Christ did not become God's for the first time by the resurrection as He was already declared the . Its meaning becomes clear, it is a coming forth just as Micah explains. The risen was then restored in His relation to the Father, which now includes a human body. He is the “only ” that lives eternally by the resurrection as the “first begotten from the dead” in time. The only one at this time raised in a body unto eternal life. Humanly speaking: One is not a Father until there is an offspring--a relationship. However we find God is called Father in the Old Testament (and also a ). Certainly man being created in God’s image is expressive of a relationship that God the Father had toward God the before the world was made. This declaration of Father and are terms describing a relationship by nature not by origination. W.E. Vine states: “The word “begotten” does not imply a beginning of his sonship. It suggests relationship indeed, but must be distinguished from generation as applied to man.” John the Apostle begins his Gospel by stating the relationship of the to the Father was before creation and explains the uniqueness of Jesus. Jn.1:18: “No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten , which is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared him.” “In the bosom of the Father” is a statement explaining relationship, intimate relationship. John writes “Not that any man has seen the Father, save He which is of God, he has seen the Father.” Which means Jesus is not just a man, since He has seen the Father, which no man can! He is more than man, though he is indeed man. When did He see the Father? Prior to His coming to earth as man he knew the Father in heaven. Just as he stated in John 17. Let Us Reason Ministries |
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"For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." Colossians 2 vs 9 "For unto us a child is born , unto us a son is given : and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor , The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." Isaiah 9 vs 6 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." John 1 vs 1 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us....." John 1 vs 14 It hurts my heart so bad when I hear or see someone denying the deity of my Jesus! Live like there's no tomorrow Laugh when you feel like crying Love like you've never been hurt
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You know, I just do not understand how a group of people can discount the trinity. Jesus said he was going to go be with the father and the Holy Spirit was being sent to comfort and teach us. Even at discussion of creation, it speaks of their being. Pluralisms.
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11/28/2010 1:35 am |
I Dennis; I was recently telling my fiancee Lynn about a group of Penticostals that don't believe the trinity, and I think this is the one I had heard of before. I'm too sleepy to read your article just now, but I'll get back to it. One thing to consider as food for thought is if they don't believe that Jesus is God the Son, yet they still call him "Lord," and can speak in tongues; then they must at least be born again. Because you can't speak in tongues unless you are born again. Perhaps these fold need a closer look, and a serious one at that. Thanks for the find, and putting it out there. Isaiah 66:2b; But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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I Dennis; I was recently telling my fiancee Lynn about a group of Penticostals that don't believe the trinity, and I think this is the one I had heard of before. I'm too sleepy to read your article just now, but I'll get back to it. One thing to consider as food for thought is if they don't believe that Jesus is God the Son, yet they still call him "Lord," and can speak in tongues; then they must at least be born again. Because you can't speak in tongues unless you are born again. Perhaps these fold need a closer look, and a serious one at that. Thanks for the find, and putting it out there. People need to quit judging what they know nothing about! Live like there's no tomorrow Laugh when you feel like crying Love like you've never been hurt
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Christianity would NOT make sense without the Trinity. It always baffles me how people of intelligence who are very well Bible read, can collectively be taken in by false doctrine. Or know the Bible so well and live in LaLa land. Or preach with their every fiber of being and walk in a 180 degree phoniness with absolute retardation and untrusting in Jesus behind closed doors. Their so called Love for Christ flys right out the window when a minor setback in life they feel is monumental and you don't even hear the name of God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit come from their lips except "oh woe is me". Some of these people would make a great study in Phychology....Great Post Dennis, God Bless
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11/29/2010 2:24 am |
Byron, they believe Jesus is all three! Jesus is God, Jesus is the Son, Jesus is the Holy Ghost. (For in Him was the fullness of the godhead bodily.)And for more information, these people are more Holy Ghost filled than anyone I've ever met. I was once a part of this body of believers and I've never been closer to God than I was then. As a matter of fact I went back there this morning and if felt like I had come home! These are the most loving people you'll ever meet and the glory of God just shines in them. People need to quit judging what they know nothing about! Good response. I hope you didn't mistaken my question as judgement, because that is not at all what it's about for me. I was simply posing a question on a matter that sounded familiar, and offering an observation of my own. What you've described doesn't sound non-trinity to me, but very pro-trinity, just from another vantage point. I still have not yet read the article, and won't get to it this morning either, as I worked until after 2 AM (my time zone), and it's coming up on 4AM now. However I'm aware that a lot of the Christian community seems very convinced that believing that Jesus is God is a requirement for salvation, and to say otherwise is herosey. The main verses used to prove such points, (not including the others related to the trinity doctrine) are not so clear, and in fact if read literally, would imply something different then what the vast majority suggests. Those passages are Rom. 10:9; and 1st John 4:1-3; In the Romans account the word 'lord' is assumed to mean God, which it can be. But it can also actually mean 'lord' as in one we give control of our lives to. The arguement is that to give one lordship is making him God, but what about those who worship Satan? Those folks know that Satan is not God, but they worship him instead of God. There is a difference between being a lord, and being God, and making someone we give lordship to into God seems like going well above what the verse in Romans called for. In the 1st John record, we are specificly told that those who don't say Jesus came in the flesh is not of God. Yet we read into it as saying that anyone who doesn't say Jesus is God is not of God, and that is NOT what the passage says. If anything, again reading literally, the opposite is implied, in it can be taken as saying that anyone who says Jesus is God, is in fact denying that he came in the flesh, which makes such people the anti-christ we have been warned about. Now I'm not trying to promote a doctrine, or saying I beleive, or don't beleive particular doctrines, and I am certainly not trying to stir up an arguement. However, I do agree with you about people judging. Folks that don't believe the trinity have a reason, and maybe that reason needs to be seriously looked at. Isaiah 66:2b; But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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Elizabeth the Oneness pentecostals do not believe in the trinity. Go to you tube and watch Walter Martins presentation on the trinity. It is very good and deep
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It is not easy to explain the triune Godhead, as He is a Spirit. It would be futile to attempt a detailed analysis of His Personage. We can only accept in faith that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are three distinctly separate Persons, yet they are inseparable; therefore they are One: Heb. 11:6; Mt. 28:19; Jn. 4:24. If the sun could represent our limited understanding of God, we could say that it consists of heat, light and the physical planet. Yet heat is not light; light is not heat, and neither can be the physical planet. One cannot separate the heat, light or the planet from one another and call that the sun. Similarly, God the Father is not God the Son, nor God the Holy Spirit. Yet one cannot separate Them from One Another and believe that either One is God. Together They are the triune Godhead, the Spirit “without record of father or mother or any ancestral line, neither with beginning of days nor ending of life”: Heb. 7:3. The Spirit is not an impersonal, electrical force either, but a Person. He can speak, send out His workers, convince us of the truth and of our spiritual condition, build His church, lead us, give us gifts; teach His truth, testify to our salvation, adopt us and comfort us. We can lie to Him, quench His work and blaspheme against Him: Acts. 13:2-3; Jn. 14: 26; 16 -14; Rom. 8:14-16; Lu. 12:10; Acts 5:3; 1 Cor. 12:4-11.In the beginning of Genesis, the Godhead “created the earth, and the Spirit of God was moving over the… waters.” And our triune Creator said: “Let Us, [Father, Son and Holy Spirit], make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness…” – Gen. 1:1-2, 26. Jesus Christ the Son of God is neither an ordinary prophet nor an angel. Jesus is God Himself. He merely took on human form and became a complete man for the purpose of humankind’s redemption and salvation. John stated in 1:1 that “in the beginning, before all time, was the Word, which is Jesus Christ, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself. He was present originally with God. All things came into existence through Him; and without Him not even one thing was made that has come into being.” During the Old Testament age Lord Jehovah, [‘El ‘Elyon, YHWH], spoke to Old Israel through His prophets, but in the New Testament age, God the Father “has spoken to us in the Person of His Son, Whom He appointed Heir and lawful Owner of all things, also through Whom He created the worlds, [spiritual- and physical worlds], and the reaches of space and the ages of time. Jesus is the sole, [physical], expression of the glory of God, [because He became a complete human being without laying down His divinity], upholding, maintaining and guiding the universe by His mighty word of power. “To which of the angels did God ever say: You are my [incarnated] Son? Let all the angels of God worship Him. But to [God] the Son He says: Your throne, O [Jesus] God, is forever and ever and the sceptre of Your kingdom is a sceptre of absolute righteousness… Therefore [Jesus] God, even Your Godhead, [the Father and the Holy Spirit], has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above and beyond Your companions. You, Lord, did lay the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain permanently; they will all grow old and wear out like a garment, but You remain the same, and Your years will never end.” - Heb. 1:1-14; Phil. 2:6-11.
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Okay Dennis I leave here with one question....does any of this have anything to do with my salvation? I already know the answer I just want to see what you have to say. Live like there's no tomorrow Laugh when you feel like crying Love like you've never been hurt
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11/29/2010 12:41 pm |
I talked with a Oneness preacher many times here, and read their literature. They do not believe anyone is saved that doesn't believe Modalism (One God, in three modes)...I do not believe Modalism is scriptural. Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father right now. So that's one of many, many, scriptures where they are together as Father, Son, or Word, which Dennis has quoted. I believe the scriptures support three Persons in one Godhead. It does matter what we believe about Jesus. One or the other is true, Trinity, or Modalism. Could you believe Modalism and still be saved? I don't know. But with all due respect to Byron, I don't think speaking in tounges is the litmus test for being saved. It was an evidence in the early congregations. The Gospel came with signs and wonders... Are they back in the latter rain? Possibly... The tests I have read stated in scripture for being born again are, knowing you need saved from your sins, repenting, and believing in Jesus, and the sacrifice He made for us on the cross. Also, "Knowing Jesus", "Growing in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ", and loving our fellow brothers and sisters. Also bearing good fruit. This shows relationship with God the Son. Also, we will be suffering the sufferings of Christ, which is having a burden for the lost, and allowing God to use us even when it costs us everything (those persecuted even unto death.)    "Love is Patient..."
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Elizabeth. No it does not. However they in many cases believe that baptism in water is part of a salvation process which is wrong. It is an outward sign and in actuality a work. I think Thomas has stated it well in his statements.
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There are a lot of things that have been taught within the last two hundred years that were never taught before. The Rapture itself is a concept less than 200 years old. Tithing was rejected as a Christian Doctrine by the reformers because it is not taught in the New Covenant, yet giving is and that all we possess is God's. William Brahmans teachings mirror many of Mormon teachings and are not scripturally sound. . As being in the Charismatic movement for 30 years and attending AOG many of those years, when I started studying I found many things to be wrong and lacking. Not the gifts of the Spirit, but i no longer believe in a second move because I believe the Holy Spirit enters at Salvation. The Azuza street was always a big and accepted topic. When I researched the corruptions of differing levels with Toronto Blessing, Brownsville and the worst of all, Florida Outpouring I decided to research Azuza street and sure enough...more fraud by the Pastors there. One of the top two left and later told about it. God is real. He can do anything, but people have a tendency to seek power and feelings above his love.
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Byron, there are Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals. The first accept the trinity
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