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if you found out.... what would you do? If you found out that once you were saved that God no longer counted sin against you how would you feel? Many people seem to think that people who believe this have a license to do whatever they want. The truth is people will do whatever they want to anyway. Because if they believed that he did count them and it did separate them, then they could still ask forgiveness as he is faithful and just right? So either way you believe you still have an out in your mind. Thats why I have always found it funny when people attack God's grace and make the relationship performance related. The real truth is fund in this. No matter which you believe you were drawn to the Lord by his Love and it is intended to be a relationship of Love. Any relationship in order to be its strongest needs attention and nurturing. 
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Danny For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever belived on him might have eternal life. Actually I believe the word says(try reading it in context sometime) That we are saved by grace and not by any works that any man should boast. Your Performance based religion is not the word of the Lord. Its a mixture of a dead covenant and a live one, meaning it is a mess on your part. Been there... Done that. Here is a little education on from the desk of Mike Oppenheimer on James 2 and its real meaning. Danny, sadly you just do not get the fact that no one before Christ could save themselves by thir actions. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~James 2 Without works your faith is dead! One of the common denominators of cults and biblical error is to teach that something other than Faith alone, is needed for salvation. While it is faith alone that saves it is always accompanied by works proving it is alive. This distortion takes the form of a faith PLUS some activity or effort on the individuals part. ( what God has provided in Christ Jesus is complete and sufficient in itself so this teaching is a challenge to the Gospel itself) The favorite passage run to by these groups supporting the grace plus" works" is James 2:14-26 - "..faith without works is dead." There it is, proof that one needs to be_______ (you fill in the blank with a. to m. from the list below) a. baptized for salvation b. become a disciple by giving up everything c. go door to door d. feed and help the poor e. live by the laws of the church f. live by the 10 commandments g. baptized in the correct formulae h. live without sinning i. tithe 10% or more, giving to get God's blessing j. have miracles occur k. speak in another tongue l. join their exclusive church or organization m. drive without getting a ticket (only kiddin'). The cults always have something else needed to REALLY get into God's favor or to keep salvation. This concept can easily be refuted by dozens of passages that state just the opposite, but the challenge is from James letter so we need to go to the immediate context of James 2:14-26. Before we do, a good rule in reading is to ask who, what ,where, why, when (the 5 W's). This should clear up things that may be unclear and bring into focus the context of the writing. When we read we should open our Bible, have a paper and pen to take notes, then pray. Spend some time in the text instead of only reading it through. Think over what is being said (biblical meditation). Your intention is to rightly divide the word and this takes time. look at ALL the letter of James first to be familiar with the theme, then go to specific passages. Read it carefully. Who is the AUTHOR? What do know about him from his letter? Is he mentioned elsewhere in scripture. What is his background from other letters . Is he an apostle or someone who knew a apostle? WHAT is he talking about? What is his theme, the major subject, or teaching. Every letter has a overall theme. WHAT is his reason or purpose for writing? WHY is he saying this to these particular people? What are they thinking or doing or believing that that has prompted this letter to be written to them. Is there any biblical error in doctrine or practice that he wants to correct? Is he following up on a former letter? Is there new knowledge to be revealed to them? Is he speaking figuratively or literally? Who are the recipients of the letter ? What is he saying about them from this Epistle? Is it a church or a single person ? WHEN was it written? What was taking place just before, or at the time the epistle was being written? Where was the Author located when this was written? Was he there at one time? Or did he hear about the recipients from another, does he plan to return to them? Does he include himself with the people he is writing to, or is he not at all involved. Is he giving them new information or reminding them of what he formerly said (such as Paul in 2 Thessalonians) The difference can be important in determining what is taking place or what will occur in the future. Are there key words or phrases? What words are used most often? HOW does he use them and define them in the letter and in the passage? (the words Faith, Works and Dead) how is he applying it to their situation. Is it a contrast or a comparison? Define what is the major point of the passage is first? What does he want them and YOU to know about his point and teaching? What is the Spirit of the text. Then go into specific words. Is there any other biblical support from other books for your interpretation of the passage. Do they have you arrive to the same conclusions? If not then you must go with the majority of evidence written on this particular subject. Have you gathered all the scriptures pertaining to this subject to arrive at your conclusion? Keep honest to the text and keep it in its immediate context. These are a few of the basic rules of Biblical interpretation (Hermeneutics). Why do two people who can do the same study in the same scriptures come to different conclusions? Instead of yielding to the text and its plain literal meaning when they see it, they look for a way out of what it actually says. They no longer follow the route of biblical logic to its conclusion. Because it may upset their already preconceived notion they have been taught. Now lets look at the text in James that is misinterpreted. What we will find it to mean is nothing like the meaning the cults pour into to it. James 2:1-4 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. 2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool," 4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? Jm.2:1-4 James is trying to correct the Church addressing how they act on their faith. They were being hypocrites showing partiality to the rich. The reason for this is the Church in Jerusalem was a very poor and persecuted church. those who converted to follow the Messiah lost everything. This is the historical background for this epistle.( 1Cor.16:1) James 2:8-12 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well;9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors.10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.11 For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. vs.8-12 they did not keep the NT command of love but then became transgressors of it. They have violated all the law vs.10 James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. vs.13 they will receive no mercy because they show no mercy to those who are in need. James 2:14: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?" vs.14 Faith (their belief) does not help them if they do not act on it. you can't neglect your brethren around you and say you follow Christ (1 Jn.2:9-11; I Jn.3:17-18 But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?V.18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth.) This is not saving faith. He is describing someone who only professes to have faith but nothing in his life is showing it. They break the command to love your neighbor as yourself. James 2:15-16: " If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" Vs.15-16 their neglect for their brethren in the practical needs and saying bless you is not faith but hypocrisy. It profits neither the hearer or the one saying it. This is putting into action Jesus' command recorded by John in chpt. 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." Now we get to the controversial passage James 2:17-18: "Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." Vs.17-18 faith that is not accompanied by works is not living faith. It is sterile. It is not an either or. James challenges them to show him their faith without works. It's impossible because only God can see the heart so he challenges them by giving himself as an example. I'll show you my faith by my works." James is not asking to show their salvation but their faith. Going back to the first part of James 2:17 " Even so, faith if it has no works is dead, (being alone). The word alone is not in the original Greek text. The literal translation "So indeed-faith, if it has no works, dead is itself." Vincent (1, p.744) "In itself." Expositors Greek testament : ( IV, p.444) " In its very essence, dead." A.T. Robertson: (VI, p. 35) " In and of itself inwardly and outwardly dead. James is explaining what kind of faith results from salvation. If it is true faith it is alive. All works are acts of faith which one must possess beforehand. This is clearly understood ,"God does not need to see the works because he has already justified us by our faith in Christ (Rom.8:33)." (New Commentary on the whole Bible Jamieson, Fausset and Brown on James 2:14-1  He's not saying we're saved or kept by faith plus works. This would make ones works a savior also. There is only one savior, that is the person of Christ and is work that was done on the cross. James is pointing out what kind of faith is actually saving faith. If they possess it, they should show it. Actions are a result of what we believe, James is saying show me what you believe. He goes on in vs.21"Was not Abraham, our father, justified by works when he offered Isaac, his son, on the altar?" In what sense was he justified since he was already pronounced right before God years prior to this? James is saying, in contrast to Paul, that God was able to see that Abraham was righteous, he already he imputed it to him. But until Abraham lifted his knife over Isaac in obedience, only God knew his righteousness. By doing this he demonstrated physically his trust in God. Abraham was put in the position to prove the genuineness of his faith. Then James poses the question James 2:22 "Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" So his faith was working together with his works. His work proved what he had all along. You need to have faith first to have any works approved by God. This is what James is concerned with in the church. If James meant that Abraham was justified by his works he would have a conflict with Paul who extensively writes on this subject through Romans, Galatians and mentions it elsewhere numerous times. That we are completely justified and sanctified by faith. Paul states in Rom. 4:2 "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say?" This is a good question. Let’s look at the answer. Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." If we go to Gen. 4:10, we find that Abraham was justified before he obeyed God and was circumcised. This all occurred before his son Isaac was born, so he had the righteousness imputed from God by faith only. In Romans 4:23-25 we read, "Now it is not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him, but for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered for our offenses and was raised again for our justification." For James further states in 2:23-24 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Paul and James are discussing two different concerns. Looking more carefully this so-called tension is resolved. Paul discusses theologically how a sinner is considered righteous before God. James is concerned with what kind of faith results in salvation, since he is addressing a particular problem that has arisen in the Jerusalem church. If one has no works springing out of their confession of belief, is this true faith? Can it be saving faith? Works wrought in Christ flow from a living source. We are not doing good works to be created in Christ, which is what this would be, we have already been created in him to do the good works (see Eph.2:10) This is the point that James is trying to emphasize, we show our faith by our deeds to our fellow man. This is true faith. Just as Jesus said to do your works before man that they may glorify your father in heaven The Bible never condemns faith alone, but a faith that is dead, an empty profession. Its inward deadness is demonstrated by it's lack of an outward life. Good works and obedience demonstrate our faith to the people around us, they glorify God. Biblically our faith is alive before baptism or any other work, it does not become more alive later. Faith is active principle in every aspect of the Christian life. Rom.14:23 "Whatever is not of faith is sin." Therefore all is by faith. We live from faith to faith. Now if we go to find other biblical support, other clear passages that prove James is not saying works save. Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." If works are what saves then we are doing good works to be created in Christ Jesus. This is the very opposite of what the text states. We are saved by faith alone but it is not alone - it is accompanied by works. Our works have no merit before God for salvation, however, we are created in Christ to do good works. Titus 3:5:" Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us his mercy he saved us." Over and over the bible makes the point it is not in man to inherit salvation. Its origin is found in God who saved us. Again Rom.4:4 "Now to him that works the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. 5: But to him that works not, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." Paul further states in Rom.11:6: "And if by grace then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. but if it is by works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work." It is either on or the other it can't be both, these are two different covenants. It is either on or the other it can't be both, these are two different covenants. Phil. 3:9: " And be found in him, not having my own righteousness, which is of the law (by works), but that through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith. It is God’s grace given to us through faith, it is a gift. As Gal. 3:22: "that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." In 1 John 5:4: " for whatever is born of God overcomes the world, and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." vs. 5 shows us who possesses this faith " Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the son of God." Real faith is born before any ceremony or deed, it is active. 1 Jn. 5:1: "Whosoever believes (faith) that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." Jn.20:31: "But these things are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God and that believing you may have life in his name." James 2:26 :" For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. Works demonstrate what is ALIVE ON THE INSIDE. Ones works declare and manifest outwardly the reality of faith which is not visible. Only God can see inside to the heart, man can only see the outside. The fruit that a tree bears shows that it is alive, healthy and productive. The fruit of a tree is not what makes the tree alive, but its the inner nature. Faith is alive first for the good works to proceed, showing what is invisible on the inside outwardly to all.
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Well Danny, you do not understand what "Fulfilling" the Law is. Did Jesus write the Gospels? No The whole word in its context is God's word, not picking and choosing. Christianity did not exist until after Jesus gave atonement. It was Judaism until then, of which only Jews were included. Are You Jewish? Just because you have a red letter bible doesnt mean Jesus wrote what he was proclaimed to have said anymore than Paul. You will understand the covenant better on the other side of the cross than before it.
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9/25/2008 5:35 am |
I am truly curious to know how these people have become sinless. Do you ever slip up? Truth is Black and White Paula Marie
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9/25/2008 9:53 am |
HEBREWS 10 -297. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13. From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16. This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17. And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20. By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21. And having an high priest over the house of God; 22. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. 23. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised  24. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25. Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. 26. For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27. But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29. Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 1JOHN 1:8-10 8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. THE SCRIPTURE in 1john are three different scenarios...IT WE say we have NO SIN....IF WE confess our SINS...IF WE say we have NOT SINNED ROMANS 6:1-19 1. What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?2. By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3. Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4. We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5. If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7. because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.13. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!16. Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17. But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19. I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.READ THE WORD OF GOD IN CONTEXT SO NOW IF YOU WISH TO CONTINUE IN PRACTICING SIN YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE BUT IF WE SIN WILLFULLY OR IGNORANTLY WE NEED TO CONFESS THAT SIN AND REPENT IF NOT THEN WE WILL STILL BE IN SIN....IF YOU DINT REPENT AND BE BAPTIZED THEN YOU WILL GO DOWN A SINNER AND COME UP A WET SINNER Choose life,So that both you and your seed may live
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The Law is Dead Danny Hebrews 8 Hebrews 7
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9/26/2008 4:25 am |
AMEN NEW COVENANT NOT NEW LAW.OLD COVENANT DONE AWAY WITH NEW COVENANT IN PLACE Choose life,So that both you and your seed may live
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moral law is a guide Claudia. Old Covenant law was by what you were justified. Moral Law is what is written on our hearts Repentence is not confessing of sin. Repentence is agreement with God
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9/26/2008 10:20 am |
1. deep sorrow, compunction, or contrition for a past sin, wrongdoing, or the like. 2. regret for any past action. [Origin: 1300‒50; ME repentaunce < OF repentance. See repent1, -ance] –Synonyms 1. contriteness, penitence, remorse. 2. sorrow, qualms. –Antonyms 1. impenitence. this is the dictionary defenition of repentance....i'm sorry dennis but i dont know where you get your defenition from but repentance does not mean agreement with GOD nor does it mean confessing of SINWHAT I BELIEVE IT MEANS IS a deep sorrow for any wrong doings/or past actions contrary to GODS laws...confessing is to outwardly express to GOD what those wrong doings are.repentance comes truly,when someone is remorseful of those actions they have done and outwatdly expresses that which he/she is remorseful of inwardly....henceforth.. FRUITS WORTHY OF REPENTANCE Choose life,So that both you and your seed may live
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Yes it means agreement with God. Agreement that what you did was wrong. Are your children not your children just because they go against your will? Absolutely not. Going back to Danny talking about what was it Romans 3:23 or whatever about the wages of sin is death? Even the most immature person realizes they are telling a person all have sinned. It is aimed at people who have not been saved yet so they know what the wages of sin is. Its all that simple. Jose' you dont take websters dictionary and try and figure out scriptures.
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9/26/2008 2:59 pm |
no dennis i didn't take the dictionary to figure out the scripture i used it to define a word...word play is a very dangerous game dennis the HOLY SPIRIT is the only ONE who defines scripture.not one's own interpetation of the scripture Choose life,So that both you and your seed may live
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Jose', well let me put it in simpler terms. Repentence is going the opposite direction with something that is displeasing God right? So if you recognize that what you have done is wrong and do not want to continue in that Jose, you have come to a place where you agree with God it is wrong and mkake a concentrated effort to stop doing that. So, what I said is right. Danny Where do you find in the scriptures after Christ gave atonement and the veil was torn where a born again believer in Jesus Christ is supposed to confess their sins? If its true, would it be all over the place? Hell is mentioned all over the place. But where is confession of sin once Christianity begins for born again believers?
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Rightly dividing the word is realizing when the old began, when the new began and not mixing everything together Danny, Most of what Jesus said was while the Old Covenant was in place.
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10/17/2008 8:01 pm |
I attempted to switch churces last year. I was following a group of people that believed that the only way to be saved and to be free from sin was to be baptized. Also, you could not be baptized if you smoked, drank, or were living an "ungodly" life which in my view kind of defeats the purpose of baptism. According to this group of so called "true believers" I was never saved and I would have to be baptized again. I tried to explain to them that Jesus died ONCE AND FOR ALL. He did not die over and over again to save us. Needless to say, I went back to my old church. In Galations 6 it talks about what we must do to be saved, but I believe this group took this chapter out of context. We are to regard our salvation with fear and trembling, but there is nothing that I can do to save myself. My gift to the Lord is to live as godly a life as possible - in other words to live by the grace so generously given to me by Christ's blood. If you don't know me you haven't missed much - but if you don't know Jesus you've missed everything!!
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10/17/2008 8:31 pm |
What if I start to smoke after I'm baptized? I wonder, would these folks un-save me?  Sorry, I really make it a point not to get into these endless discarguments, the same ones that were never "solved" by those who died before us, quite possibly to awaken in eternity quite chagrined that they had spend time arguing their points instead of walking by the Spirit, pouring grace like water to those dying of thirst. Novel idea, eh? Blessings, Elizabeth
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