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When did Judas Die? I dont think there is a super defining thing regarding Judas and what happened to him... anyway here is an interesting article.I will say this, there are a lot of things that have been taught as factual that have not been in the church all that long. Tithing is one. Rapture thinking is another.~Dennis Let us begin our study with I Corinthians 15:3-5, according to which the resurrected Christ appeared to the twelve. 1 Corinthians 15:3-5, "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:" For many, this scripture has been a stumbling block since, according to tradition, Judas died before the crucifixion and therefore, if this tradition was right, then here the Word of God should have written "eleven" instead of "twelve". The investigation below starts by confirming that the "twelve" of the above passage are the well known "twelve" that included Judas. After that, we continue with a detailed analysis of the gospel records that refer to the post-resurrection appearance of Jesus that happened at the evening of the "first day of the week". Though this appearance is not the appearance to the twelve, it is very important to examine it since, as we will see, Judas was there when it happened. Apart from this, the examination of this appearance is necessary for a good understanding of the gospel record of the appearance to the twelve. After that, the investigation will continue with the examination of the traditional view and the passage of Matthew 27:3-5 that is used to support it. Finally, the article will close with the study of another passage that will help us to specify the time of Judas' death more accurately. ~answers to questions website |
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The Twelve of I Corinthians 15:5 According to the above given passage of I Corinthians 15, the resurrected Christ appeared to the twelve. To reconcile this reference with the tradition according to which Judas died before the crucifixion, it has been suggested that the twelve here are the old eleven disciples plus Matthias that substituted Judas in Acts 1:26. However, a conjecture like this is not supported neither from the references of the Word of God regarding the time that Matthias was counted as one of the twelve nor from the passages of the gospels that refer to some of the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus Christ. But let's examine this issue in more depth. It is evident that there is no change in a specific group of people if there is no change in its composition. The original composition of the group of the "twelve" disciples is given in Matthew 10:1-4 as well as in Mark 3:14-18 and in Luke 6:13-16. Luke 6 for example tells us: Luke 6:13-16, "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." As it is evident from this passage, the original composition of the group of the twelve included Judas Iscariot. Many other passages in the gospels also witness that Judas Iscariot was "one of the twelve" (Matthew 26:14,47, Mark 14:10,43, Luke 22:3,47, John 6  1).
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Thus, whenever we read "the twelve" we should understand it as a term that denotes the group of the above twelve people, except if there is a change in the composition of this group. In this later case, when the reference is to events before the change the number "twelve" should be understood as the group of the above twelve men, while when the reference is to events after the change, the meaning has to be adjusted correspondingly. In our case, the event that the Word of God speaks about in I Corinthians 15:5 is the resurrection of Jesus Christ and his appearances that followed it. Therefore, the simple question that has to be asked is what was the composition of the group of the twelve at the time of the resurrection? Was Matthias numbered with the eleven at that time? The exact time and the process that was followed for the inclusion of Matthias in the group of the remaining eleven disciples is given in Acts 1:15-26. From this record we learn that sometime between the ascension and the day of Pentecost, Peter proposed the substitution of Judas by someone else. The candidates were two: the one was "Joseph called Barsabas" and the other was "Matthias." How the choice was made and who was chosen is described in Acts 1:24-26 Acts 1:24-26, "And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place. And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles."
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Now, since only at that point Matthias was numbered with the eleven, this obviously means that he wasn't numbered before (the Greek word that is translated as "numbered" in the above passage is the verb sugkatapsephizo, which means "to be numbered with", "to be counted with" or "to be calculated with" and denotes the inclusion of something/someone into a particular group). Therefore, whenever we meet the expression the "twelve" and the reference is to events that happened before Acts 1:26 what is meant is the twelve of Luke 6:13 that included Judas. On the other hand, when this expression refers to events that happened after the inclusion of Matthias then what is meant is the new composition of the group that excluded Judas and included Matthias. Bearing this in mind we should not have any problem to understand who are the twelve of I Corinthians 15. The corresponding passage refers to the appearance that happened before "Matthias was numbered with the eleven." Therefore, since at that time, Matthias was not yet one of the twelve, the expression "by the twelve" of I Corinthians 15 refers to the original twelve of Luke 6:13 that included Judas. This does not mean that Matthias didn't see the resurrected Jesus, because he did, indeed, see it. In fact, in his proposal given in Acts 1:15-23, Peter says: "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when he was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection" (Acts 1:21-22).
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For Matthias to be proposed (Acts 1:23) it means that he fulfilled all these requirements. The fact that except of the twelve others also saw the resurrected Christ is also confirmed by the gospels (Luke 24:33-36) and by I Corinthians 15:6 that speaks for an appearance to "five hundred brethren." The point, therefore, is not whether Matthias was a witness of the resurrection for he certainly was. The point is whether, at the time of the resurrection, he was counted with the eleven apostles. As scripture tells us, he was not. Some claim that, even though Matthias was not an apostle at the time of Jesus' resurrection, he was an apostle at the time the book of Corinthians was written. Therefore, they referred to Matthias as an apostle (in 1 Corinthians 15:3-5) for that reason. However, this is not supported anywhere in scripture.
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Further evidence regarding the presence of Judas after the resurrection is given by the gospel records of two of the post-resurrection appearances of Jesus. The Appearance "at the evening of the first day of the week" This appearance is described in three out of four gospels. For a complete picture it is needed to examine each of these records carefully. Let's begin with John. The Witness of John The witness of John to this appearance is given in John 20:19: John 20:19, "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you." Though this verse does not specifically state who of the disciples were present at this appearance, verse 24 of the same chapter tells us who was not present: John 20:24, "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came." So from the above record we can conclude that in the appearance that happened at the "evening of the first day of the week" Thomas was certainly not there. This information has vital significance for the right understanding of the corresponding records of Mark and Luke and thus we should keep it in mind. The Witness of Luke Having examined the witness of John, let's examine the witness of Luke about the same appearance. The four gospels complement each other and to have a complete picture of something we should examine all the available records making sure that all of the them refer to the same event. One of the most frequent reasons of errors in the division of the Word of God, that is especially relevant in the gospels, is the confusion of similar things as identical. Indeed, it is not at all necessary; just because two records are similar (the healing of a blind man for example) it does not mean these records refer to the same exact event. Whether they do so or not is something that has to be determined after a careful examination of the context of the corresponding records. Returning to our topic, the witness of Luke to the post-resurrection appearance that occurred at "the evening of the first day of the week" is given in chapter 24. Verse 1 informs us that the day is "the first day of the week." Then verse 13 tells us that two of the disciples (these disciples didn't belong to the group of the twelve) "went that same day" [i.e. the first day of the week] to a village called Emmaus which was seven miles from Jerusalem. Somewhere in this journey Jesus joined them and verses 15-31 give a description of the wonderful fellowship that they had together and how at the end "their eyes were opened and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight" (verse 31). When these disciples arrived at Emmaus, it was "toward evening" as verse 29 says. After they recognised Jesus, Luke 24:33 tells us what these two disciples did: Luke 24:33, "And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them," Bearing in mind that Emmaus was no more than just 7 miles from Jerusalem and that when they arrived at Emmaus it was "toward evening," but not evening, we can conclude that by the time they arrived at Jerusalem it was already evening, "the evening of the first day of the week." What happened at that evening is given in verses 33-36: Luke 24:33-36, "And they [the two disciples that had just arrived at Emmaus] rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you." Since this appearance happened at the evening of the first day of the week, it is therefore the same with the one that John speaks about. Thus, the events described by John and Luke are not only similar but also identical. However, while John tells us that Thomas was not there, without telling us who was there, Luke adds to our knowledge that present at this appearance were "the eleven...and them that were with them." Many people read this passage and think that the reason the text speaks of eleven was because Judas was already dead, as tradition teaches. However, the record of John shows very clearly that the disciple that was absent in this appearance was not Judas, but Thomas. In turn, this means that Judas was present at this appearance and saw the resurrected Jesus. This also confirms the record of I Corinthians 15 according to which Judas was alive after the resurrection.
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The Appearance to the Twelve After all this, the reader may ask, "Where does the appearance to the twelve appear in scripture?" The appearance to the twelve is also described in one of the gospels, namely in John's gospel. John 20:24, "But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came." This "them" refers to the disciples that were present at the appearance that happened at the evening of the first day of the week [John 20:19] and which Thomas missed. According to the other gospel records, we know that, except for Thomas, all the other eleven disciples were there. John 20:25-26, "The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you." Who were the disciples that were present at this appearance? They were the eleven plus Thomas (i.e. "the twelve"). Evidently, it is this appearance that the Word of God speaks about in I Corinthians 15:3-5. Having confirmed from the above the appearance to the twelve and that Judas was there when it happened, we will continue with the examination of the misunderstood passage which is responsible for the tradition that supports the idea that Judas died before the crucifixion. Matthew 27:3-5 The passage that is traditionally used to support that the death of Judas happened before the crucifixion is in Matthew 27 where, starting from verse 1, we read: Matthew 27:1-8,11, "When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor. Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest." Far too often we read this passage with the preconceived idea that the link that connects the above events is time (i.e. we assume that this happened first, then this happened second, third, etc.). However, a time link is only one of the many ways by which we can connect various events. In fact, it is very usual when we describe something very important, instead of making continuous references to other events of minor importance, to describe them by opening brief parentheses. By this way we avoid the continuous detraction of the attention from what we consider as the most important person or event of the story. This is exactly what happens in our passage as well. The great topic of Matthew 27 is not Judas and his story but Jesus Christ and his passion. This is what the Word of God wants to point out and it is this description that is made in a time sequence. Consequently, apart from the story of the man on whom the Word of God focus's (i.e. Jesus Christ), the stories of other people or events have necessarily to be restricted to brief parentheses. That is exactly what happens with Judas. Verses 1 and 2 tells us that Jesus was delivered to the governor. Then verse 3 opens a parenthesis to tell us what happened to Judas. This parenthesis continues up to verse 5. Thus we learn that Judas when he saw that Jesus was condemned, he repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver. Because the chief priests and the elders didn't accept them, he threw them down and he left. Finally he committed suicide. Though these events are described in a time sequence relative to what happened to Judas [i.e. first he regretted, then he returned the silver pieces and then he committed suicide], they are not described in a time sequence relative to what happened to Jesus. They are a parenthesis that explains what happened to Judas; we are not told when it happened but what happened. As a matter of fact, Many people believe verse 3 happened right after verse 2. Verse 3 says Judas did these things "when he saw that he was condemned." But Jesus was not condemned until verse 26! Thus proving that verse 3 could not possibly have happened right after verse 2, in sequence, but much later, after the trial. This is more evident from verses 6-10, which consist of another parenthesis that tells us what happened to the thirty pieces of silver. Thus, we are told that the chief priests took these thirty pieces and after they consulted together, they bought with them the potter's field. Evidently, to end up buying the field, it means that after they consulted together, they went to the market, they found someone willing to sell a field, they visited the field to see if it was the one that they wanted, they reached a decision whether they will buy it or not, they agreed on the price and finally they made the relative contracts. Those that have any idea of the time that it is usually needed to only find the appropriate land know that this requires several days, weeks and sometimes months. If we were to read this parenthetical passage as many of us read the one that precede it about Judas (i.e. by taking everything in a time sequence), then we would conclude that while Jesus was before the governor (verses 1-2) Judas returned the money and hanged himself, the priests took the money, consulted together, found someone that was selling a field, saw the field, reached an agreement about it and made the contracts. All these are simply impossible to happen when Jesus was standing before the governor and in fact without any progress in his investigation (in verse 11, after the close of the parenthesis, the investigation of Jesus is exactly at the same stage as in verse 2, i.e. Jesus is standing before the governor). Moreover, an interpretation like this would contradict all that we have seen from the other gospels and from I Corinthians that tell us Judas was alive after the resurrection. The great topic that the Word of God describes in Matthew 27 is Jesus Christ and his passion. Thus, it has to discuss other things in brief parentheses. Verses 1-2 tells us that Jesus was brought to the governor. Then, verses 3-5 open a parenthesis where we learn very briefly what happened to Judas. We are not told when Judas committed suicide but what he did. Then a new parenthesis is opened in verse 6 that continues till verse 10 where it is describes again, very briefly, what happened to the thirty pieces of silver. Again the topic is not when these happened but what happened. Then verse 11 takes us back to the point where verse 2 left off (i.e. to the investigation of Jesus by Pilate). The parenthetical character of verses 3-10 and the fact that what is described there is not given in a time sequence relative to the great topic of the chapter (the passion of Jesus), is evident by just reading the passage without verses 3-10: Matthew 27:1-2,11, "When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor...And Jesus stood before the governor: and the governor asked him, saying, Art thou the King of the Jews? And Jesus said unto him, Thou sayest." As it is obvious, the omission of verses 3-10 does not cause any lack in our understanding of the great topic of the passage, and exactly this was the purpose of God when He put these verses as a parenthesis. To conclude, therefore, the record of Matthew does not specify when Judas hanged himself but what he did. To learn when he did it, we need to consult the other records as well, to see what they say. With the evidence that we have collected so far we know that Judas saw the resurrected Christ and in fact we know that he was alive at least eight days (John 20:26) after the first appearance to the eleven. On the other hand, Peter in a speech given sometime between the ascension and the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:15-22) said that Judas was dead. This means that sometime between eight days after the resurrection and the day that Peter spoke, Judas hanged himself. This space can be narrowed down by taking into account what is said in Acts 1. Acts 1 More evidence that will help us to determine better when Judas died is given in the first chapter of Acts. Acts 1:1-2, "The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:" The crucial question that has to be asked before we go any further is who were the apostles "whom he had chosen"? The relative list can be found in the gospel records one of which (Luke 6:13) was also given previously and for ease of reference it is also repeated below: Luke 6:13-16, "And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Simon, (whom he also named Peter) and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon called Zelotes, And Judas the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor." The apostles therefore that Jesus had chosen and to whom Acts 1:2 refers are the well known twelve apostles that included Judas. Bearing this in mind we can continue the reading of the passage: Acts 1:1-10, "The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;" All these "whom", "them" and "they" refer to the apostles that Jesus had chosen and therefore, according to Luke 6:13, included Judas. Thus, since there is no other indication to the contrary, by following the record we can say that Judas should have been there, when the ascension happened. However, it is interesting that verses 10 and 11 of the same chapter tells us that "two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven?...." From the apostles that Jesus had chosen, only Judas was not a Galilean. This indicates that Judas was not present when the angels spoke. On the other hand, there is no indication that he was absent from the ascension. Therefore, the conclusion that one could draw is that Judas saw the ascension and then he left before the angels spoke. Sometime between this time and the time that Peter spoke is when Judas committed suicide. That this happened after the ascension is also indicated by the fact that had Judas committed suicide earlier, Jesus would have substituted him. Otherwise, it would be strange for Peter to do something that Jesus didn't think as appropriate to do. However, because he committed suicide sometime after the ascension and Jesus wasn't there any longer to make the substitution, Peter resumed this responsibility. Having clarified all the above we can give a brief conclusion to the first part of this study. The conclusion is that Judas died sometime between the ascension and the day that Peter spoke, which was earlier than the day of Pentecost. After he saw that Jesus was condemned, he repented and returned to the group of the other disciples. We don't know when exactly this happened but we do know that he was with them "at the evening of the first day of the week" (i.e. shortly after the resurrection). As a result of his repentance, Judas was forgiven and he was accepted back. Indeed, there is no indication that Jesus treated him differently from the others. However, though Judas was forgiven, he didn't forgive himself but permitted the condemnation to take over his mind and finally to destroy him.
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What's the Difference if Judas died Before or After the Crucifixion? For those that will ask this question, it has to be said that we didn't simply try to find the exact time at which Judas died. This alone might have minor significance if we didn't have problems with the accuracy of the Word of God. Surely, we would have no problem if Judas died before the crucifixion if the Word told us so. In contrast, I would have many problems if in one place the Word, as tradition thinks, tells me that he is dead before the crucifixion, and in another I'm told that he is alive after the resurrection. Then, the examination is no longer a simple examination of the time that Judas died but an examination of the accuracy of the Word of God. The time therefore that Judas died does make a difference, and in fact a very big difference: the difference between an unerring Word of God, as indeed the scripture is, and a word that has errors as tradition makes the scripture to look like.
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Interesting theory and I can see where the Bible might indicate that Judas was still alive to see the resurrected Jesus, but it doesn't make sense for Judas to commit suicide after seeing Jesus. I view suicide as an act of desperation. If Judas had seen Jesus and known he was forgiven, why would he commit suicide?
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because t5he one he loved had been killed. He and Jesus were very close.Suicide in some parts of the world and in some cultures is viewed much differently than it is here
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its from the answers to questions website as I listed in the first post. I post it in parts so that it will not be one long thing. It did not mention the author
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There isa Christian site called Answers to Questions. That is where this came from
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I think we have to remember that the Gospels were transcribed by men, who are prone to err at times, about 50 or 60 years after the death of the Apostles. Prior to that they were passed down by "Word of Mouth" There were other Gospel accounts, including one by Judas, which were discarded by the early Church Elders. In about 180 AD the Gospel of Judas was condemned as "Heresy" by Bishop Irinaeus and discarded from there on. Apparently, an ancient document bearing the title Evangelicum Judas (or something like that) has recently been carbon dated which indicates that it has been around since about 100 AD or so. Men may have made mistakes when transcribing the word, which may account for any slight discrepancies we can pick out. Not that I am saying that the Gospels are wrong, I believe them to be a true and faithful account of the events they depict, I just think there may be more, and I think we should earnestly pray before we read so that the Lord will deepen our understanding, and let us see what is not written. Love, Liz xxxx God Bless You and keep you in the palm of His hand.
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well some of the thing at issue is that some of these said the same thing and probably less. I agree its a holy handbook and history
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Thanks for this interesting discourse Tropical. It is good for me to see that others have also given this subject some thought. The story of Judas Iscariot makes me cry and I feel I must be the only one as if I mention this I get funny looks.(grin) I also feel that Judas was chosen by Jesus and that He knew what would happen.Poor Judas. As if he never had a choice but we know he did. I often wonder which Apostle would have been chosen had Judas just taken the choice not to be the betrayer. I also think that Judas has more to his story to tell. Cheers, Katididaustralia.
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Jesus was closer to Judas than most of the disciples
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