 | Blogs > Cathoholic > My Blog > Baptism is a requirement for entrance into the Church. Not merely sign of obedience. |
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Today in Christianity, many things are now being distorted. I noticed that many Christians have abandoned the traditional teachings of the early Christian Church. Many Christians now believe that baptism is only symbolic, instead of what it actually is, a cleansing of original sin as well as a means by which we are initiated into Christs salvation. Accepting Christ means obeying the things he told us to do. While baptism is a sign of a Christians obedience, the act of baptism itself is more then just a mere symbol. Does the bible teach that baptism is merely symbolic? No. I'm afraid it does not. The bible actually says baptism causes an inward change. it is not merely some sign of obedience. This notion that some Churches teach is not biblical it all. It is merely private opinion based not on scripture, but on personal opinion. Peter said to them "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2: 38 ) Notice that Saint Peter clearly states that one must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. It never states making some "private acceptance of Jesus in your heart" will cleanse you of original sin. It states being baptized is the first step towards being reconciled with God. Funny how some Christians teach that baptism is not a cleansing of sin. Yet this verse clearly states that it does. It says repent AND be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. Not just repent and your sins are forgiven without need of baptism. If baptism were not required as part of the salvation deal, we would not even bother doing it. There is yet another verse, where Jesus Christ tells us that we must be baptized. He does not say this is a mere symbol that does not do anything for you. "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" John 3:3 He instructs that to be born again, it must be done with WATER and SPIRIT. Jesus flat out says that one must be baptized in both in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This really is not hard to mis-interpret, so I do not understand why some people on Big Church post that it is merely symbolic. Once again, I would like anyone reading this to please point out where scripture says baptism is merely symbolic. I will be very interested to see such a verse in scripture indeed. Now people also have told me that baptism cannot save you. However, that is not what Saint Peter says. 1 Peter 3:21 "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," I do not think Saint Peter agrees with the current Christians or their Churches that teach that baptism does not cleanse you of sin. But if people wish to cling to their private views that go against one of the Apostles. Their entitled to do so. Clearly some Christians must know better then Apostles the importance, and necessity of baptism. I could go on and on about this subject. Their is more then enough evidence to back my claim that baptism is not just symbolic. Their is nothing to back the claim that baptism is just a symbol though. The Thief on the Cross, yes I know about the thief on the cross. It is possible for a person to be baptized by desire, if under certain conditions a water baptism cannot be achieved. In fact, some traditions taught the tears of the thief provided the water for his very own baptism. Bottom line, Christ can always make exceptions, but the intended means by which we are to begin our entrance into the Church is baptism. It is not a suggestion, it's a mandate. |
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 3/8/2008 10:38 am |
"The bible actually says baptism causes an inward change." I believe its the Holy Spirit dwelling in our hearts & minds that causes the change. "I noticed that many Christians have abandoned the traditional teachings of the early Christian Church." Its probably best if Christians do abandon "traditions" of any church. ( Matt.15:3,6 ; Mark 7:8,9,13 ) You say, "Jesus flat out says that one must be baptized in both in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. At the same time you quote John 3:3 , "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" Now, if Jesus flat out said, "Unless you are born again AND be baptized, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. However, he didn't "flat" out say that. "Saint" Peter? Sorry, but I don't seem to see that title "Saint" in my bible. Perhaps, we could talk about traditions again. I suppose if your going to say you need to be baptized to be saved, coming up with the thief's tears baptizing himself is a good "get out of jail card" to support your belief. " Today in Christianity, many things are now being distorted." Yes, they sure are. Care to continue? ... for love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet. 4:8 NLT
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3/8/2008 2:04 pm |
"The bible actually says baptism causes an inward change." I believe its the Holy Spirit dwelling in our hearts & minds that causes the change. "I noticed that many Christians have abandoned the traditional teachings of the early Christian Church." Its probably best if Christians do abandon "traditions" of any church. ( Matt.15:3,6 ; Mark 7:8,9,13 ) You say, "Jesus flat out says that one must be baptized in both in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. At the same time you quote John 3:3 , "Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" Now, if Jesus flat out said, "Unless you are born again AND be baptized, you shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. However, he didn't "flat" out say that. "Saint" Peter? Sorry, but I don't seem to see that title "Saint" in my bible. Perhaps, we could talk about traditions again. I suppose if your going to say you need to be baptized to be saved, coming up with the thief's tears baptizing himself is a good "get out of jail card" to support your belief. " Today in Christianity, many things are now being distorted." Yes, they sure are. Care to continue? Tom! thank you for taking the time to respond to this blog. There are many things that you have alluded to that I wish to address. #1 You say "I suppose if your going to say you need to be baptized to be saved..." Actually, I am not the one who says you need to be baptized to be saved. Saint Peter the Apostle is the one saying it. Heck, even Jesus says it! John 3:5, where Jesus says, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." So yes my brother Tom, I am not the one saying it. Just so were clear. Jesus did flat out say that. In your above post you claim he didn't flat out say that. I just wanted to clarify that he did. #2 You also stated in your Post "coming up with the thiefs tears baptizing him is a good get out of jail card to support your belief" I suppose following "Bible Only" Is your get out of jail free card to support your belief that SAINT Peter is not a Saint. But wait...does the bible actually teach that??? Where in scripture does the bible teach that we go only by whats written in the bible? 1 Timothy 3:16 says this "The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of truth" Exactly right! The bible says the CHURCH is the Pillar and Foundation of truth. It also states however in Timothy that all scripture is inspired, and USEFUL (or Profitable) for reproof or correction. Useful or profitable does not mean sufficient. The Bible itself never states scripture alone. If you can find just 1 verse that states that, please share it with me so I can become a believer in sola scriptura. Now, given the fact that the bible says the CHURCH is the Pillar and foundation of truth. I think it's a bad idea to ignore that foundation and just go with "The bible only". After all, the Church is the reason why a Bible exists. Not the other way around. #3: Ah yes, the old "tradition is bad" argument. Well, the problem with that is the Apostles did have traditions. Traditions which they passed on to the Early Christian Church. Jesus was not condemning all traditions, he was condemning false ones. I hope that helps you understand things a little more clearly. Here are some verses for you to read in the bible, so that you will know I speak the truth when I say that tradition was something Christians were expected to follow, as well as sacred scripture. Paul tells the Corinthians, "I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2) In conclusion, your certainly entitled to your views. Although I believe the Apostles are Saints. It's ok if you do not believe that they are. I just find it strange anyone would ever call the Saint hood of Peter into question. Just because the Bible does not explicitly say he is Saint Peter does not refute the fact that according to Christian tradition, he is a Saint. But good luck selling that to any Christian. Thanks for your time.
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 3/8/2008 2:30 pm |
What is the church?
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3/8/2008 4:30 pm |
What is the church? The Church is the Body of Christ. As according to what the scriptures have said that it is. That Church is Universal, open to all who wish to be a part of it, therefore the Church is Catholic. Based on tradition. The Church is Holy, because it is Christs body. The Church is Apostolic, because it is built on the foundation of the Apostles.
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3/8/2008 6:06 pm |
cathoholic, Baptism is a public acknowledgment of our loyalty to our Savior in response to salvation God grants us by his grace. Baptism occurs because we have been saved, not in order that we might be saved. Acts 2:38 Baptism isn't the gospel as Paul says, 1 Cor. 1:17 The gospel of God's grace, the gospel of what Jesus has done and is now going is what saves us. Baptism is not part of what saves us. We are not saved by righteous things we do, and baptism is righteous -- Matt. 3:15. "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy". Titus 3:5 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18 It doesn't say we are condemned if we are not baptized. A good example of John 3:18 is the thief on the cross. He believed in Jesus so he wasn't condemned. ... for love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet. 4:8 NLT
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3/8/2008 6:38 pm |
The Church is the Body of Christ. As according to what the scriptures have said that it is. That Church is Universal, open to all who wish to be a part of it, therefore the Church is Catholic. Based on tradition. The Church is Holy, because it is Christs body. The Church is Apostolic, because it is built on the foundation of the Apostles. Is the body Of Christ the people or a building or is it both or other?
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3/8/2008 7:43 pm |
cathoholic, Baptism is a public acknowledgment of our loyalty to our Savior in response to salvation God grants us by his grace. Baptism occurs because we have been saved, not in order that we might be saved. Acts 2:38 Baptism isn't the gospel as Paul says, 1 Cor. 1:17 The gospel of God's grace, the gospel of what Jesus has done and is now going is what saves us. Baptism is not part of what saves us. We are not saved by righteous things we do, and baptism is righteous -- Matt. 3:15. "He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy". Titus 3:5 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:18 It doesn't say we are condemned if we are not baptized. A good example of John 3:18 is the thief on the cross. He believed in Jesus so he wasn't condemned. Tom, thanks once again for posting on my blog. #1 I never stated that we are condemned if we are not baptized. I am only stating what Jesus Christ our lord said, when he said that unless one is born again of water and spirit one shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That does not necessarily mean that unbaptized individuals are to go to hell. Merely that unless one is baptized one will not enter Heaven. #2: Baptism is not a symbolic recognition that we are "saved". The act of baptism unites us in the promise of the resurection. Saint Peter himself says baptism now saves us. You should read my following blog statements more closely. I have provided the verse. The act of baptism also cleanses us from sin. So the idea that the baptism is merely symbolic, is a false teaching. If you are trying to make the argument that baptism is merely symbolic and you do not have to do it in order to merit salvation, your following your own doctrine. Not something the bible itself actually states. Acts 22:16 "Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins WASHED away, calling upon his name" You see, clearly baptism does wash away sins. Acts 22 clearly defines this. So I really am confused how anyone can say that baptism is a mere symbol. Not something that actually unites us with the Church and Christs body. I agree with you that baptism is a public acknowledgement of our loyalty to Jesus Christ. However it is not simply that. As scripture has clearly shown us. "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:3) If the common Anabaptist concept that baptism is an ordinance that does not actually do what it signifies, then the passages above would be rendered meaningless. How can we be "baptized into" Christs "death" and "raised" to new life by a ritual that does not do what it symbolizes? We can't. The sacrament of baptism is not merely symbolically effects our relationship with God. It actually changes it by infusing us with grace granted by the Holy Spirit. #3 Your argument that we are not saved by righteous things I will get to at another time. Just know for right now that we are not saved merely by our faith alone. That is another doctrine many Christians buy into that frankly, the bible does not teach. The verse you stated about whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of Gods one and only Son. Believing is more then just saying "I believe Jesus is the son of God" Believing also entails obeying him. If you really believe Jesus is God then you will do what he says, ergo you will be baptized. To say you believe in Jesus Christ, but do not believe in the necessity of baptism is a contradiction. Since Jesus taught baptism was necessary for salvation. The thief's act of believe on the cross was not enough, he actually had to commit to certain acts. 1 of those was acknowledgement of his sin. He admitted that he had sinned and deserved his punishment. Which he confessed to Jesus. Simply confessing Jesus is God, without repenting of ones sins is not the way to achieve salvation. Man is not saved by faith alone. He is saved by faith and obedience to God. We are going to be judged by our actions, not simply what we believe. Thanks for your time.
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3/8/2008 7:46 pm |
 ... for love covers a multitude of sins. 1 Pet. 4:8 NLT
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3/8/2008 7:50 pm |
I ask you these questions as to not try and assume what you believe. Is the body Of Christ the people or a building or is it both or other? The body of Christ are those who have been baptized into the Church. The Catholic Church does acknowledge that those who are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now share a relationship inside of Christs Church. However, the Church is also an organized institution. It is not leaderless, nor is it merely a fellowship. Jesus Christ established an authoritative Church that had the authority to speak on his behalf. He gives his apostles this authority in scripture. In Luke he even says to the Apostles "Whomever listens to you, listens to me" This is just one example of how the Apostles spoke with Gods authority *Christs* on matters concerning the faith, and what Christians are supposed to believe and not believe. So to answer your question 1: The Church is the "People" 2: The Church is also it's leadership which has actual governing authority because Christ established his Kingdom here on earth. It is very much institutionalized and not merely a fellowship. It has an actual chain of command, with Christ being head of that chain of command. We are soldiers for Christ, but soldiers without a chain of command are highly in-effective without organization. I hope that clarifies.
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3/11/2008 6:51 pm |
Well thank you sensory, I really respect and appretiate that. I know nobody likes to be mis-represented. The body of Christ are those who have been baptized into the Church. The Catholic Church does acknowledge that those who are baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, now share a relationship inside of Christs Church. However, the Church is also an organized institution. It is not leaderless, nor is it merely a fellowship. Jesus Christ established an authoritative Church that had the authority to speak on his behalf. He gives his apostles this authority in scripture. In Luke he even says to the Apostles "Whomever listens to you, listens to me" This is just one example of how the Apostles spoke with Gods authority *Christs* on matters concerning the faith, and what Christians are supposed to believe and not believe. So to answer your question 1: The Church is the "People" 2: The Church is also it's leadership which has actual governing authority because Christ established his Kingdom here on earth. It is very much institutionalized and not merely a fellowship. It has an actual chain of command, with Christ being head of that chain of command. We are soldiers for Christ, but soldiers without a chain of command are highly in-effective without organization. I hope that clarifies. If the church or institution is the pillar of truth then this would mean that every church would teach the same thing as there as there is only one truth.If I would go to five different churches and ask 5 different priest's a question on scripture,I should expect to recieve the same answer from all five priest's. I don't mean to get off topic of your subject but some things are important for me to have an understanding on and these are questions I ask myself.
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3/11/2008 9:12 pm |
Your wise to say that all Christian Churches should be teaching the exact same truths, and not different ones. This is a very crucial point that many Christians think do not matter. Which you and I both know that they do. As far as talking to 5 different Priests and getting the same answer from every single one of them, it's not so much that I think they would all give you the same answer, but when it comes to what the "essentials are" they should all be giving the same answer. If you were to ask all 5 Priests if Baptism was necessary, all 5 should answer that it is. However, what happens if one of the 5 priests is not in agreement with the other? Then obviously we need to look closely at whether or not a Priest is teaching his own personal opinion, or Church doctrine. When most Christians hear the word doctrine, they think this is a word that stands for something that is non-important to their walk with Christ. However this is not so, doctrines were defined to prevent heresies from spreading within the Church. It was a way of reminding Christians just exactly what their stance was on certain eternal truths. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity comes to mind. This is perhaps, one of the most cornerstone doctrines of both Catholic and Protestant belief. Clearly all Christian Churches should be teaching the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Now, some Protestants would find it absurd for a Church not to teach such a fundamental truth. However, their are other truths that the Church always taught, that are no longer taught or believed among Christian Churches. The first and foremost of which is the doctrine of Christs real presence in the Eucharist. As strange as it looks to Protestants, that one could have a Christian Church and NOT have the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. It looks EQUALLY strange to me to have a Christian Church that denies Christ is physically present in the Eucharist. I hope this helps put some of my thoughts into perspective for you, so you can understand where I am coming from in these matters. As always thank you for your responses on the blog.
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