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Iraq... "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - part of Jim Elliot's October 28, 1949 journal entry One life will soon be passed, only what's done for Christ will last! |
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7/16/2007 8:44 pm |
The setting is perfect for the fulfillment of bibical prophecy.... As all seek a solution for peace....scripture tells us one will arise and win over the admiration of many....it will be an astonishing but deceitful solution.....and it will be put into effect...at this point the scripture "which Rhonda has quoted" will become the reality. However, the world will fall into bondage and freedom as we know it will never return.... it will truly be the beginning of the end to this world's system.....furthermore it get's worse....much worse before the Prince of Peace will return to set up His Kingdom and He will reign forever and ever and His Kingdom will never end.... What do we do?.........Jesus told us to occupy till He comes...to aid the broken, to take a stand for those that are aflicted....to relieve the burdens of the oppressed.... if this is our motive behind the current war in Iraq......we are then doing what He says.... God Bless, maria
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7/16/2007 10:01 pm |
We made a decision to go and committed much to that choice, now we must decide to stay and again commit much to that decision. To leave now would much more harmful than if we stayed and persevered. --Cy--
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Bring our troops home...we should have not gone there..it will never end....I want my grandson home..call it selfess if you like..it is a senseless war, but it is a sign of the times we are in..God is getting ready....
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7/17/2007 7:30 am |
Good poll, Bro ! First off.....God has NOT sanctioned any wars ever. I know the OT is written that way, but it's not true....only in some mens' minds can it be true....the OT writers, and OT believers today. The devil is always the perpetrator of wars. A Godly man is a Christ-man, and Christ was/is the Prince of Peace. Christ would never be for war, even though He knew and understood that wars will happen, in the growing up process of the nations of the world. Christ's teachings were totally opposed to war, and He laid down His own life to prove it. Many others have to. Ghandi, M. L. King, Jr., and many martyrs down thru time....including the Apostles, have shown us the only way that works. So...all who are for war are not really Godly, in the true sense. Do good people get caught up into war....yes. Is it necessary sometimes....yes. ...but it's not now or ever by God. Now....we've all been programmed differently, and told there are such things as just wars...but that cannot be true in God's economy. Wars are from fallen men always. One day we'll learn this truth, even though almost all of you will deny the above. ...but Christ would never be for war of any kind, and He is the resurrected God. The second Adam....true, pure man, with God onboard, and unfallen. The Old Testament needs to be done away with as far as it influences people of today to justify certain actions. On one hand, God says don't kill, and on the other He says kill ? Ya can't have it both ways...or God changes. If that's true, then fine...I can accept that...but then the OT God is totally different than the NT God, which I can also understand. The OT is history...that's all it should be used for today. It's good teachings and concepts are incorporated into the NT. Okay....enough already....but my point is that we are gonna have to get past all the wrong teaching for the world to progress into real NT Christianity, and get back to God originally ! War cannot be a part of Christianity ever.....
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7/17/2007 8:26 am |
Then God changes, ky. If you agree with that, then I'll agree with you.
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7/17/2007 9:12 am |
There was no war in the Garden, so war is not of God...unless it's a fallen God, which Adam turned out to be, if God is for war. Adam was God in the flesh originally, before the fall. Man's life was originally the Spirit of God (pneuma). When he fell, that original, perfect God was gone. Only in the new birth and the resurrection does it come again. As far as Jesus and the final war....it's a war of love defeating hate...a parable that man can understand. that's all.... Revelation is a tough book...we all know that...but it needs to be read metaphorically, a lot of the time. Jesus went thru the war for us already. Mankind must get out of its OT ways. Most Christians are OT in nature....we cannot seem to help ourselves. Jesus said love your enemies...does that not register with you ??? We all must get past the OT programming and the OT preaching that has gone on for far too long in our Christian churches ! We all fall too easily into the trap ! Even Billy Graham and Charles Stanley said Iraq was okay !....bullcrap ! Christ said love your enemies, and He taught and showed it. Iraq is a total disaster, as are all wars, and it definitely is not of God...just fallen men who want to judge one another. Iraq wasn't even involved in 911 but we veered off Afghanistan to go after Sadaam, who once tried to kill the elder Bush. It's sad...all the young ones dying and getting maimed over that. Could we, as the strongest nation ever, make peace with all our enemies ? Who knows...we've never tried. All we've tried is dominating and running the world the way we want it. That aint Christian, parson ! Christians have got to meditate on Christ's teachings more...not Pauls or the others....Christ ! Matthew 5-7. The golden rule trumps all war, and its from God....wars are definitely not, unless it's a fallen God. Thou shall not kill applies, as well as hateful thoughts. We gotta get away from the OT teachings of God being for war. If He hasn't changed...He wasn't for it originally, and He isn't now. Christ was God. His teachings do not sanction war of any kind. I realize how everyone is programmed, including you (and I used to be that way too), but thinking has to change to comply with Christ for the kingdom to come, and the world to be Godly. Regards....and I'm glad you made this post. I may get slammed, but so be it....I'm not for pussy-footing around the issue.
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7/17/2007 9:46 am |
No, I have no problem discussing these things with anyone who can stay rational and level-headed about them, but it takes time for folks to really see the Christ teachings and ways. It did me also. We act like we've been taught and programmed...but we can change, and we all need to change ! The righteous are judged first, and that's where we are. Matt. 10:34 I don't take it literally. Go back and interpret the Greek. The sword of the Spirit I can buy, and the Spirit stirs up unrest(lack of peace) in our hearts until we yield to God's true ways. I agree we try to box God. It's time we get past all the old 'Christian' teachings that are really OT and not Christian. Look at John Hagee for instance. I'm all for Israel, but no way do I condone everything they do, and America shouldn't either. I know they got it tough, but they get out of hand from time to time. Christians or Jews...we all get out of line occasionally ! The Lebanon response by Israel was atrocious. Matt. 5-7 covers all we need...as does the golden rule. We don't need more. Christians have got to get past justification for judging everyone else. Why can't we see that's why many in the world hate us. We have more enemies now than ever !...and they're growing fast. Martyrs, willing to give their lives to go up against the bully West, as they see us. It's not all about Islam teachings. 'True' Christianity is the only thing that's gonna change the world for the better. We need one bad as our Prez, but I don't see any on the horizon...who can win. Ron Paul is one, but he'll never make it.
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7/17/2007 1:33 pm |
I was called 'un-American' for my opinions when our Government, mainly Bush, was bound and determined to rush into it. People in my family have come near physical violence when discussing it. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but anyway... Now that we are there, we should give the Iraqi Government a year until we withdraw totally. We should then tell them we will be happy to help in any non military way that we can after that. My friend's son is stationed in the 'safe' part of Iraq, where they can play softball on Sunday's in the field to pass time. Well, they were there Sunday and he got hit in the face with a 'dud' RPG. It shattered 8 bones in his face, he got lucky. No one died from his unit, but several were insured. It hit his gun first and also it was a dud, or he wouldn't be alive today. Thank God that he is alive. We need to get our men out. They are coming back with PTS Disorder and beating their wives etc... We don't really think about the after effects of war until they are upon us. Would Bush want his daughters there? mmm...
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7/17/2007 1:53 pm |
I was called 'un-American' for my opinions when our Government, mainly Bush, was bound and determined to rush into it. People in my family have come near physical violence when discussing it. I have an uncle that is from Jordan and a semi redneck aunt who made our Thanksgiving dinner extremely unpleasant last year. I took my kids and left. I don't like being around that sort of thing, of course. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but anyway... Now that we are there, we should give the Iraqi Government a year until we withdraw totally. We should then tell them we will be happy to help in any non military way that we can after that. My friend's son is stationed in the 'safe' part of Iraq, where they can play softball on Sunday's in the field to pass time. Well, they were there Sunday and he got hit in the face with a 'dud' RPG. It shattered 8 bones in his face, he got lucky. No one died from his unit, but several were injured. It hit his gun first and also it was a dud, or he wouldn't be alive today. Thank God that he is alive. We need to get our men out. They are coming back with PTS Disorder and beating their wives etc... One of my friends' husband tends to have flashbacks at night. They'll be sleeping and the next thing she knows, he'll yell, "Get down!!" and push her off the bed to the floor. Once, she woke up and he was gone. She went into the hall and he was standing there pointing his finger at her like he had a gun, this is scary. I guess he was sleep walking. We don't really think about the after effects of war until they are upon us. Would Bush want his daughters there? mmm... I know I don't want mine there.
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7/17/2007 2:09 pm |
Ky, Yule learn different in time, I hope. There was no war in the garden, and Jesus meant exactly what he said in the mount teachings...and he lived and modeled them, even before the resurrection. Many smart men since have learned that war is not a part of true Christianity, though Christians get led astray into that thinking. The Jews made the error of the conquering King vision, and you have fallen for it too. He'll conquer....but with the cross and love, not war. Regards Bro....to live is to follow Christ. Matthew 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. Matt. 5 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 7 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Wars are because of fallen man, not God, and certainly not the resurrected Christ. When the experience comes for the Christian, then he understands.
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7/17/2007 4:09 pm |
Well...good point about the angels, ky ! OTOH, a war in heaven is a lot different than a physical war among men, but it speaks to Jesus' teaching about if you think it, it's the same as if you've done it. As far as avoiding, you've not spoken to some of my verses either, but Jesus' example speaks volumes, if we disagree about the meaning of his words. The same goes for the Apostles. They never tried to use war as a vehicle for the kingdom. They went to their crosses the same as Jesus, but they certainly didn't have to.
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7/17/2007 5:10 pm |
I can't see how by any measure anyone thinks it's possible to establish stability in Iraq. I thought Iraq has already had 2 "free and fair" elections?? Don't you remember the brave voters who had the ink on their thumbs? I thought they already had a Democracy?? If you mean stability, there is no chance of that happening. The US presence is clearly the cause of a great deal of the instability. Strategically, the longer you fight a guerilla war, the longer you lose. The only time stability is going to even remotely occur is when that country is partitioned into 3 states with no more U.S. occupation. And I don't see why we have any duty as Christians to support the war at all. It was pretty bogus from the onset (see the "mushroom cloud" warnings of Dubya and Condi et al.). Not to mention it has zero relation to 9/11. And if anyone is really concerned about Israel shouldn't we be discussing newly elected President Simon Peres announcing two days ago that Israel should give the Palestinians back the territories and return to pre-1967 borders? That would make a Palestinian state right next to Jerusualem, almost ensuring that Israel cannot defend itself from attack. To no surprise, President Bush supports this plan and even pledged hundreds of millions to the Palestinians just yesterday. And we see the warning about this in the Bible As it is written: "FOR BEHOLD, in those days and at that time when I shall reverse the captivity and restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and will bring them down into the Valley of Jehoshaphat, and there will I deal with and execute judgment upon them for their treatment of My people and of My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations and because they have divided My land." [Joel 3:1-2 This is the main issue in the middle east right now. Not the money and oil grab that is Iraq.
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7/17/2007 6:10 pm |
(How many times did God instruct the various leaders of Israel to utterly destroy a people/nation?) ky... This, of course, is our fundamental disagreement. You say God instructed them....I say He didn't. They were listening to the devil and calling him God. Still goes on today, but that was the OT understanding, and still is today. God doesn't say...thou shall not kill and then turn around and tell people to kill. Only the fallen God does that (the devil). Man is at war with his fallen mind...not God. God, the Holy Spirit, never changes. The father and son do, personally.
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7/17/2007 6:59 pm |
Comparing the Iraq quagmire to the civil war? Are you serious? The Union had the entire north east and midwest as strongholds. There was easy transports of goods, arms and reinforcements. The land battle was clearly drawn out and there was ONE enemy. Iraq is an urban guerilla war where the enemies can appear and disappear at will. Our troops are fighting Sunni insurgents, The Mahdi army, Al Queda and whatver other random extremists who have a beef with America. There is no stable base (the Green Zone gets motared on a daily basis) and troops have no discernible goals with respect to territory. We are not trying to "take over" a city. We are just providing an urban police force. Furthermore, many people in the Union wanted to keep the country together. How many Iraqis are backing the U.S. presence at this point in their polls? You don't want to know. Even Maliki just said this week that they can survive without the troops. The two wars are not remotely analagous. The argument that "Congress supported the war" is a bit of a fallacy considering they were receiving the same "hyped up" or false intelligence reports. So naturally they would support the war, because they believed what they read. IN the end most of the info came from a crackpot, heavy drinking source named "Curveball" who was provided by the German government. The Germans specifically said his information was not credible. And the decrease in violence between Israel and Palestine is temporary. With this insane plan to return to pre-1967 borders, combined with Hamas' takeover of Gaza and the Lebanese border means certain conflict. Israel has never appeared more vulnerable. Iraq only provides further instability to the region. But as I said before, how do we as Christians have any duty to support the war in Iraq? I don't see it.
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7/17/2007 7:13 pm |
WAIT A MINUTE HERE......SOME OF THE READING I"M DOING IS TELLING ME THAT THERE ARE SOME HERE WHO DON'T KNOW...... JESUS IS GOD!!!!!! GOD IS JESUS........ AND HE NEVER CHANGES!!!
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7/17/2007 7:25 pm |
I did a post called 10 Inches a while back about the Red Sea parting. Sure, I believe God honors faith. I also believe in the inspired word too. We just interpret it differently. And yes, wherever men went against the tenets of God, they weren't listening to the real God who you say never changes. They weren't always successful, however. You still haven't explained to me how God said thou shall not kill, and then turned around and told them to kill. Sounds like a changing God to me. And do you think Jesus wanted people killed when he said love your enemies ? I may sound mixed up to you....but you do to me also ! You've had the typical fundamental training and programming that you can't get past yet....but the world sees these contradictions that that type of teaching can't explain. Many of them have had it with the OT god and world, and I can see their point. When we Christians are not like Jesus, they want no part of us. The OT is not Jesus-like ! I will say, however, that you know your hams ! I've been eating a lot of it lately and really enjoying it ! The OT would scorn us both for eating it. Does that mean God changed again ? 
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7/17/2007 7:37 pm |
Jesus was/is God the Son. He said the Father was greater than He. Remember the 3 seperate...but one entity.
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7/17/2007 8:47 pm |
Sure they drowned. God allowed it...just like He allowed the devil to kill Jesus and the apostles. So.....? I appreciate your concern Bro, but you ought to spend more time thinking about answering the worlds' questions about the contradictions between the OT & NT teachings. You absolutely cannot have it both ways....unless God changed. I can't believe you can't grasp this ! Why would you worry about me ? I have the experience and assurance in my heart that God miraculously provided, PTL ! I just see some things that you don't, yet, and all because of that. Open your mind to the teachings of Jesus and forget about what you think God directed in the OT that is totally aginst Jesus' teachings. Ask the HS to show you the truth concerning these things. It's either that...or you have to admit that God changed. Individuals change when the touch of God truly comes, so why not ! I've even heard one brave preacher preach that...but then the minority is never right, eh ???
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7/17/2007 8:58 pm |
bucksy -- wars aren't fought based on "popularity". They are fought on the basis of the agenda of the leaders of nation states. And no, I am not running for office and I am NOT a Democrat nor do I plan on voting in any elections. But I do happen to study politics and history very closely. And Clausewicz stated that wars don't fail because of bad tactics, they fail because of bad policy. Dubya's MONEY grab in Iraq was flawed from a "victory perspective." Numerous generals advised that the forces were not large enough or sufficient to occupy the country. The Sunni army was immediately disbanded once the initial invasion was completed. Weapons depots were left unguarded. Massive looting was permitted. All this after hyped up, unreliable evidence was used to justify the war. Bush said mushroom cloud. Condi said mushroom cloud. And there was no evidence of a mushroom cloud. But I honestly don't care about the political aspects of this. The reality is that we are not going to leave Iraq in the next decade. We are building a massive base and embassy there the size of a town. We have secured the oil (13% of the world supply), there have been billions made in construction and much more to be made for the preferred companies. Israel and the US want a war in the region and will continue to enact policy, like the ludicrous Palestinian state to provoke one. Why else would Peres put Israel in such jeopardy? On his first day of office no less. It's quite funny to hear you discuss a "stable Iraq" after 5 summers of guerilla warfare. Especially when 2007 has had some of the bloodiest months ever. Again, how can this stability be achieved? YOu give no measure. Just repeating the same mantra doesn't accomplish anything. The insurgency is not going anywhere. There are no reports of it weakening or ending. Staying has turned into an enormous recruiting tool. And as for the region, Hamas has done more than enough to keep the region completely unstable for the next couple of years. But I ask again, as Christians, why do we have any duty to support this war? That is the most important issue. And I see no answers from you at all. Apostle2day-- Very correct. The laws for meats are definitely not applying anymore. As The Lord told Peter in Acts 10:13 "Get Up Peter. Kill and eat." "Surely not Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean." The voice spoke to him a second time "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." We are not justified by the law but only by salvation through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
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7/17/2007 10:46 pm |
A very impressive display of clear thinking here busykydad. I wish more people had a more objective POV as you have demonstrated here. It is amazing to me how much revisionism there is about the period just preceding the war. I am disgusted at those who at the time were in support based on the best intelligence we had and who now act as if there was some conspiracy to mislead them. It must be easier to believe that someone deliberately falsified the intel than it is to believe that we got bad info and acted on it in good faith. That would deprive some of their reason to bash the president. Is that why some people have no trouble making the leap from that line of thought to the idea that 9-11 was an inside job? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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1. It was never going to work. Just compare the two philosophies. 2. I do not believe our motives for being there very sound. 3. Why are'nt we in Darfur where we are really needed? O, I know, no oil! Life is too short not to be nice.
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7/18/2007 4:42 am |
Well, ky.... We've gone nowhere really, in our discussion, but it's been interesting. You won't give an inch, and I certainly won't either because the situation is obvious to most, so here is the crux of the matter for you to cogitate on for a few days. The OT god and the NT God are totally different....but creator God is and always has been the same. He never changes. But we...as individuals change. In other words, the personal God changes. The fall. The OT was written by OT believers...God inspired yes...but with partial and still unregenerate understanding. Can you see Jesus telling Joshua to go in and conquer the land, and kill all the inhabitants ? Sounds radical Muslim, right ! Well, the Jews and the Muslims are brothers, and they think alike....guided by their OT god. Jesus would never do that. He taught and modeled totally differently, because he was the second Adam...the Holy Spirit in the flesh...but this time surrounded by a fallen garden of unregenerate believers everywhere. Surely you can see the truth here. People need the difference between the OT and the NT God explained, and there is a complete difference, whether you acknowledge it or not. Again, it's a personal God thing. The Jews and Muslims and other believers of God in the world have not experienced God yet, but they are on the way to that. Does love kill ? God is love. (the HS) OT understanding is not equivalent to NT understanding. We're all on the way, at different points along the trail....but the church in general, has to get some correct understanding and not just mouthe age-old incorrect teaching, which makes no sense ! I'm done for a while. Study and think about this for a week or so, and I'd be happy to discuss it some more later. Open your mind to the obvious truth----the difference between the OT & NT God---and then think personally.
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7/18/2007 4:50 am |
(Do you believe this? I'm beginning to wonder... ) ky... Actually, I think it's you who doesn't believe it. You can't seem to grasp the personal God in each person. Think personal ! We all know the ubiquitous God never changes. later....
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7/18/2007 10:04 am |
The USA should stop giving government grants to foreigners to go to college and start their own businesses when we natives have to pay for these things. If I go to another country, do I get a free ride? Poor Gina, she is from the US, let's give her some money. Nope. I can't afford health care because it is minimum $350 per month for JUST me WITH a $500 deductible. Why can't the government work on this problem with some earnst? My employer is a small business owner, he can't afford to help me with it either. I pay my taxes, which includes money for others' healthcare, but not mine. I have carpal tunnel in my wrist for 9 months and can't afford the surgery. I get to live in pain, since it isn't work related. Why can some of the million dollars per day from the war help the citizens of the US.
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1. It was never going to work. Just compare the two philosophies. 2. I do not believe our motives for being there very sound. 3. Why are'nt we in Darfur where we are really needed? O, I know, no oil! 1. they said it would never work in the US colonies either - but they were wrong. anything worth having takes time and patience. btw - there are more than two philosophies in Iraq What an absolutely naïve response. Appealing to the past to justify the present simply does not wash. As to the philosophies, you might as well say there are millions because each individual holds a slant on one or other philosophy. Generally, the two philosophies are Islam combined with middle eastern philosophies and of course, Christian combined with capitalist bents. The two WILL NEVER walk hand in hand. Anything worth having? What is worth having and for whom? Democracy will not operate in that region ‒ remember philosophies? Or is it the oil? Or removing Saddam (which needed to happen but not at the expense we now see.) You really need to expound on this phrase otherwise I may have to have fun with it, at your expense. 2. our motives are not sound, or your perception of the motives? Now you sound like a post-modernist. Please spare me this and explain to me what our motives are so I can sleep peacefully at night even though a dozen more people have died, including soldiers, and more families have been irreparably traumatized. Armchair remarks are so very easy to make. Darfur - albeit less than ideal, the Sudanese government IS working with the UN, etc... Iraq/Saddam WAS NOT working with the UN. All he had to do was comply with the UN's inspections. Have we forgotten that? Less than ideal? Surely you jest! It is an unmitigated disaster and we have chosen to be silent or at best, voiced our objection at the UN. Let me ask why we are not in Tibet, N. Korea…Darfur etc? Don’t fall prey to diplomatic procedure and appeal to the teachings of Christ. Peace trumps violence any day. BTW ‒ even if reluctantly and intermittently, Iraq did comply and guess what ‒ NO WMD! So, while our wonderfully active UN ‘talks’ about things, it continues and you are OK with that? I remember during the Ruanda conflagration, our state dept., along with the UN could not agree on the term ‘genocide’, and all the while people were being murdered. If, believe for one second that the Sudanese government is making every genuine attempt to stop the killing, you sir are horribly misinformed. Or is just your perception? Look, we can split hairs until the cows come home, but this is about ethic and morality and we have consistently displayed the opposite when there has been no strategic advantage to ourselves. If you believe in politics and the way it works in the US, then these leaders of ours are merely acting in the many they feel we the people are wanting. By implication, it is not the government at war but us at war. We have approved this nonsense and it is absolutely time we withdraw our approval. We are really out there if we think we have the moral high ground and upon that we usurp the global policing authority. All the while internally we are collapsing because of that very illness. Remember, the plank in our eye!? Anyway, chew on that and I do look forward to your response. Life is too short not to be nice.
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I still love ya though!!! So, do you believe the Red Sea was parted by God for the Hebrew's to cross over? Do you believe God then closed the Sea drowning Pharaoh's army? Or are you giving credit for that to the Devil? Or do you just not believe the Bible is God's inspired word? (2 Timothy 3:16) Help me understand what you say, "they were listening to the devil and calling him God." Was that what Moses, Joshua, Gideon, David...etc. all were doing? 
You sound like a politician...
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