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 | Blogs > racefan4 > My First Blog > I'm So Tired Of People Saying That Jesus Came To Abolish The Law! |
I'm So Tired Of People Saying That Jesus Came To Abolish The Law!
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Yes, He came to give us a New Covenant, a better Covenant, but He DIDN'T come to abolish the Law, rather He came to fulfill it.Do you really think He came to give us a new covenant so that it would be OK to commit murder, bear false witness, dishonor your mother and father, and commit adultery? And, BTW you don't have to tithe anymore either. NO! NO! NO! The Bible tells us that Christ came as the Mediator of a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6). The popular belief that the New Covenant abolishes God's law reflects a misunderstanding of both covenants. God tells us that He altered the original covenant and made "a better covenant, which was established on better promises" (verse 6). But it was not established on different laws. The law stayed the same. The only difference is that He came in a covenant of love, to take our personal and individual sins upon Himself, and left us with grace and the Holy Spirit to enable us to be obedient to the 10 Commandments, and forgiveness when we are unable. To enable people to internalize His law—to love it and obey it eagerly and willingly—God makes this promise: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them" (Ezekiel 36:26-27). God's Spirit enables His people to obey His laws! So many build a foundation on the belief that because Jesus came, we are no longer required to be obedient-HOGWASH!!! God's Ways are the SAME-yesterday, today, and forever! He does NOT change His mind. And those who walk in His Ways will be blessed! The following passages in the New Testament confirm, either explicitly or by example, that Jesus and the apostles viewed the Ten Commandments necessary for true Christian living. • First Commandment: Matthew 4:10; 22:37-38. • Second Commandment: 1 John 5:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 10:v7, 14; Ephesians 5:5. • Third Commandment: Matthew 5:33-34; 7:21-23; Luke 11:2; 1 Timothy 6:1. • Fourth Commandment: Luke 4:16; Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:4, 9. • Fifth Commandment: Matthew 15:3-6; 19:17-19; Ephesians 6:2-3. • Sixth Commandment: Matthew 5:21-22; 19:17-18; Romans 13:9, Galatians 5:19-21; James 2:10-12. • Seventh Commandment: Mat-thew 5:27-28; 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 10:8; Ephesians 5:5; Galatians 5:19-21; James 2:10-12. • Eighth Commandment: Matthew 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; Ephesians 4:28. • Ninth Commandment: Matthew 19:17-18; Romans 13:9; Colossians 3:9; Ephesians 4:25. • Tenth Commandment: Luke 12:15; Romans 7:v7; 13:9; Ephesians 5:3, 5. So, don't take Jesus' coming as a license to sin, grace is NOT a license to sin. It is simply the ability NOT to. And if we TRULY love Him, we will want to be obedient. I don't know about you, but as for me and my house we WILL serve the Lord! NOTHING that happens, happens for NOTHING  I Am Truly Blessed By Each Of You Here At BC, Yes, Even You!!! What's In YOUR Past? Hey BigChurch! We're Back From Our Honeymoon! Does God REALLY Promise Not To Allow More Than We Can Bear? New Members at BigChurch, WATCH OUT!!! |
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7/5/2009 10:50 pm |
People tend to focus on two words, when it comes the the law. They are. 1. Fulfill 2. Abolish But there is another aspect of the law which most overlook. 3. Set aside The Law ( or Torah ) has been set aside ( replaced ) by a better covenant. There was nothing in the Law that could impart life, because it ( the law ) was weak through the flesh. Rom. 8: 3; so God by sending His Son set us free from the law of sin and death. The law brings death to all who attempt to keep it, must keep all of it ( Gal. 3:10 ). The believer is now set free to serve God in the Spirit ( leading to a life pleasing to God ). So, is the law obsolete ? " By calling this covenant " new ", he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. " Heb. 8: 13 The writer of the Book of Hebrews clearly states, that the old covenant ( i.e. the law ) is; in fact obsolete. Why ? Because it could never impart life. When you study the entire Book of Hebrews, you learn of the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant. We learn when we read the Book of Galatians, that it is dangerous to mix the two covenants, and those who do are in danger of a divine curse. Is the law still in effect today ? Yes. But not for the believer; for the believer has died to the law so that; he may serve in the new way ( of the Spirit ), not in the old way of the letter ( the law ). The law is designed to reveal sin, not to stop sin. The unregenerate need the law to do its work in their lives; by revealing their sin; thereby causing them to turn to Christ for forgiveness. To try and use the law for any other purpose will only lead to anathema. Believers are no longer under the tutelage of the law, because we live by the indwelling of the Spirit. BE KIND TO UN-KIND PEOPLE, THEY NEED IT THE MOST!!!!!!!!
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7/3/2009 7:47 pm |
freaks, there aint no god, freaks
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 6/27/2009 4:48 pm |
P.S. How's your ministry doing? I'm out of points to email and ask you how things turned out.   I just sent you an email and an invite to my friends network. Please let me know by quoting this comment if you didn't receive it. Blessings to you! NOTHING that happens, happens for NOTHING I Am Truly Blessed By Each Of You Here At BC, Yes, Even You!!! What's In YOUR Past? Hey BigChurch! We're Back From Our Honeymoon! Does God REALLY Promise Not To Allow More Than We Can Bear? New Members at BigChurch, WATCH OUT!!!
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6/27/2009 3:51 pm |
P.S. How's your ministry doing? I'm out of points to email and ask you how things turned out.
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6/27/2009 3:50 pm |
Sorry if I ever came across that way! I know what you mean. The law was never meant to save us, but it wasn't excused just because we were unable. That's why we need Jesus. That's my low-brow viewpoint.
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6/27/2009 1:28 pm |
People tend to focus on two words, when it comes the the law. They are. 1. Fulfill 2. Abolish But there is another aspect of the law which most overlook. 3. Set aside The Law ( or Torah ) has been set aside ( replaced ) by a better covenant. There was nothing in the Law that could impart life, because it ( the law ) was weak through the flesh. Rom. 8: 3; so God by sending His Son set us free from the law of sin and death. The law brings death to all who attempt to keep it, must keep all of it ( Gal. 3:10 ). The believer is now set free to serve God in the Spirit ( leading to a life pleasing to God ). So, is the law obsolete ? " By calling this covenant " new ", he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear. " Heb. 8: 13 The writer of the Book of Hebrews clearly states, that the old covenant ( i.e. the law ) is; in fact obsolete. Why ? Because it could never impart life. When you study the entire Book of Hebrews, you learn of the superiority of the new covenant over the old covenant. We learn when we read the Book of Galatians, that it is dangerous to mix the two covenants, and those who do are in danger of a divine curse. Is the law still in effect today ? Yes. But not for the believer; for the believer has died to the law so that; he may serve in the new way ( of the Spirit ), not in the old way of the letter ( the law ). The law is designed to reveal sin, not to stop sin. The unregenerate need the law to do its work in their lives; by revealing their sin; thereby causing them to turn to Christ for forgiveness. To try and use the law for any other purpose will only lead to anathema. Believers are no longer under the tutelage of the law, because we live by the indwelling of the Spirit. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/24/2009 6:52 am |
I see you joined the post with an opinion. It's a little nicer than coming to attack the bloggers. If you see ugly in me, its because it IS and all I have done is sort of a 'monkey see, monkey do' type thing. So if things seem ugly to you PRAISE GOD IN HEAVEN... for I just hold up a mirror. We need to drastically change.. soon, I fear.
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6/23/2009 4:32 pm |
the subject matter I do believe is mercy, common courtesy and obedience to God. You are one bossy lil snit there arentcha? lol ahhh well... as racefan says, we DO have laws...
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6/23/2009 6:51 am |
I don't think you're gonna solve this apparent controversy with your post, Terrie! The balance between being free from the Law, and to be obedient to the Law, can only be understood by the indwelling of the Spirit. Rationally, one could say that to please God you should follow His literally given rules, while spiritually one could say that He will lead one to His "essence" of the rules and therefore to automatically follow them. The approach is different! While first one HAD TO follow specific and detailed statutes, ordinances and commandments to get the blessing of God, now with the blessing and work of Jesus, the Holy Spirit's new nature in man, would LEAD to TUNE IN in the ESSENCE of God's LAW (the source behind ALL statutes and commandments), and therefore to FULFILL WHATEVER law that had been given! The LAW comes from WITHIN, because God Himself has written HIS NATURE in the believer! Consequently, the newborn ACCEPTS all of God's ever given "words" to His people, and can then "reshape" them, accordingly to one's own circumstances, culture and time in history. Not to comprehend this, it's the sign that the Holy Spirit is NOT properly indwelling, and the results are precisely to take the scriptures out of context, give them one's own interpretation and FORCE people to believe in humans' interpretations. The REST in the Lord for the Christian, IS NOT in keeping a SPECIFIC DAY, like the 7th day, and there are other verses that can be added to your 4th commandment's verses. (Fx: The Jews came together on THAT day, that's why Jesus and Paul preached to them on that specific day!) The whole teaching about JUSTIFYING ONE'S SINS in the name of the Lord, is a move of the Antichrist to confuse the minds of the weak! When you walk with the LORD, you don't sin! He is LORD = He has the last word in your actions, and to Him one responds and will have to respond! Normally the Antichrist doesn't explain what SIN is. (Being in the Spirit one KNOWS what sin is!) Don't let "man" pretend to judge the children of God! If The LORD doesn't accuse you, then you're FREE! AMEN! The power LIES now in His NEW LIFE, NOT in the following of the OLD written law to GET INTO THIS NEW LIFE! ALL LAW that pleases God will be AUTOMATICALLY FOLLOWED by the communion with the Lord, the Father and the Holy Spirit! Be aware of false teachers!  The balance between being free from the Law, and to be obedient to the Law, can only be understood by the indwelling of the Spirit." WHAT is so HARD about understanding that we have LAWS to obey? 'indwelling of the spirit'.. even a child can understand obedience. you guys and your interpritation of being filled with the holy spirit.. geez.. terry thanks for making the post anyways and respecting Gods WISDOM.. in this matter.
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6/23/2009 6:46 am |
This has nothing to do with wanting to be the first in line. It has to do with discussing the subject matter. I trust the opening post was intended to initiate a debate. If you don't want to read it, you can simply refrain from this post, right? You are one bossy lil snit there arentcha? lol ahhh well... as racefan says, we DO have laws...
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6/21/2009 10:21 am |
Could this all go on for eternity? Without so much as a change in any of us? I wonder sometimes ya know? Why cant we be like Jesus. Or even look at Abraham.. He told Lot to do the chosing where he wanted to live. Like Jesus said, dont run to sit in the front, you might be asked to go to be back and embarrass yerself.. Doesnt it all kind of boil down to not always wanting to be first in line.. and using mercy. If we could all grab hammers, nails and plenty of wood to build a mercy seat like God had a long long time ago (he didnt call his throne a judgement throne), I wonder how beautiful BC could become. I would love to see something actually HAPPEN here. Besides debates.. What a cruel joke religion has played on us all.
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6/21/2009 7:52 am |
WOW.. I'm glad I found this post because I have truly be educated today.. Now I know why it is said the Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I'm humbled by peoples knowledge and humiliated at my lack therefore 2Tim2:15 springs to mind. Thank you to all concerned in the debates
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6/21/2009 3:41 am |
Could this all go on for eternity? Without so much as a change in any of us? I wonder sometimes ya know? Why cant we be like Jesus. Or even look at Abraham.. He told Lot to do the chosing where he wanted to live. Like Jesus said, dont run to sit in the front, you might be asked to go to be back and embarrass yerself.. Doesnt it all kind of boil down to not always wanting to be first in line.. and using mercy. If we could all grab hammers, nails and plenty of wood to build a mercy seat like God had a long long time ago (he didnt call his throne a judgement throne), I wonder how beautiful BC could become. I would love to see something actually HAPPEN here. Besides debates.. What a cruel joke religion has played on us all.
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6/20/2009 9:59 pm |
May you remember forever you have said these things. I place your stone hearted accusations squarely in the hands of Christ. GBY, may you live a thousand years. Mike Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." This stuff IS squarely placed on Christ, both your sins and mine. Although we are the same in Christ, it doesn't change the fact that the Jews walk in the laws and the Gentiles don't. That's evident in our disagreement in the laws vs. grace subject. We're free in Christ. How is that offense, unless you choose it? If God's word offends me, I deal with it. I wish you too would go to God over the hurts of the Jews instead of attacking me in Christ. Christ is for the Jews also, if you could just stop taking offense, and return to God. I have very deliberately refrained from putting freedom from the laws on you once I learned you were Jew. That, my dear, is honouring who you are, if you can get that.
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6/20/2009 8:15 pm |
Sabre, there are two ways of viewing this subject - the way of the Jew and the way of the Gentile. I don't expect you, a Jew, to agree with my walk as a Gentile, and I don't wish to adopt your faith. I'm not Jewish. We are to remain in the faith in which we received Christ. This is biblical. You say I offend, but God intended the Jew to be jealous of the graces given to the Gentile so that the Jews return to him. You're offended in the graces God has for the Gentile in Christ, for God has granted salvation to the Gentile because his own people rejected him. This is biblical. You can carry on being offended if you want to, but what's the point? You keep saying I'm speaking outside of the word. True to God's word, you're offended in the Gentile's graces in Christ, for you hold to the laws while God has received the Gentiles in grace. Yet you ought not be offended, for you outside of Christ are lost also. God has granted the same grace to the Gentiles as the Jew. Surely you can accept that God has large volumes of writings concerning specifically the Jews. This has nothing to do with the Gentile. Maybe you should take your disgruntled heart to God, for I have nothing to do with what God wrote in his word. I'm merely affirming it. There is no stubbornness in my responses. Only you offended. GBY, may you live a thousand years. Mike Gal 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."
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6/20/2009 6:37 pm |
My whole point all along- if you recall- is that there is "obviously two ways of viewing this," and you yet persisted that your words were akin to absolute truth biblically. Stubbornness astounds me, sometimes... and persists, lol. If nothing else I hope you have gained knowledge of a new biblical perspective. You said "I'll assume you're Jewish. I truly don't want to take you from your faith, but there are those that will benefit from my teachings, and so I will continue in the faith that God has given to me."  There is so many things wrong with that statement, it would take many paragraphs to address it properly, so I won't. I'll just leave you with this, and like I said early on in my correspondence to you: we all will be judged by every word that proceeds out of our mouth. And Judgement it is written BEGINS with the teachers of the Word. It's as James said in 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers." Those words, and all the other direct quotes of scripture could many truly benefit from. GB! You say I offend, but God intended the Jew to be jealous of the graces given to the Gentile so that the Jews return to him. You're offended in the graces God has for the Gentile in Christ, for God has granted salvation to the Gentile because his own people rejected him. This is biblical. You can carry on being offended if you want to, but what's the point? You keep saying I'm speaking outside of the word. True to God's word, you're offended in the Gentile's graces in Christ, for you hold to the laws while God has received the Gentiles in grace. Yet you ought not be offended, for you outside of Christ are lost also. God has granted the same grace to the Gentiles as the Jew. Surely you can accept that God has large volumes of writings concerning specifically the Jews. This has nothing to do with the Gentile. Maybe you should take your disgruntled heart to God, for I have nothing to do with what God wrote in his word. I'm merely affirming it. There is no stubbornness in my responses. Only you offended.
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6/20/2009 3:38 pm |
Sabre, I'm going to leave this discussion now. There are obviously two ways to view this, as with baptism and once saved, always saved. I'll assume you're Jewish. I truly don't want to take you from your faith, but there are those that will benefit from my teachings, and so I will continue in the faith that God has given to me. This too is biblical. I believe I said we have to balance laws and grace, within the teachings that God has provided to us, and within a personal walk with God in Christ. Have a nice weekend. You said "I'll assume you're Jewish. I truly don't want to take you from your faith, but there are those that will benefit from my teachings, and so I will continue in the faith that God has given to me." There is so many things wrong with that statement, it would take many paragraphs to address it properly, so I won't. I'll just leave you with this, and like I said early on in my correspondence to you: we all will be judged by every word that proceeds out of our mouth. And Judgement it is written BEGINS with the teachers of the Word. It's as James said in 3:1 "Not many of you should presume to be teachers." Those words, and all the other direct quotes of scripture could many truly benefit from. GB!
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6/20/2009 3:04 pm |
Actually you take up very interesting points, Mike. This post turned out to be really edifying and can help to see things from a new perspective: the messianic Jews, or the Christian-Jew. Normally one is used to see things from the non-Jewish point of view, or from the Pharisaic Jews that "denied" Jesus the Messiah. If I were Jew of birth, I would undoubtedly have done the same as your family did, and you do and will continue to do. Hereby the danger of misconstruction, that also have been reality in certain Christian circles throughout history. (I've seen extremes in all views on BC as well!) It would sound as if Jesus had done away with everything that had to do with the old covenant, just because He instituted the new one. And here lies the core of the controversy: in not grasping this important detail! I've never thought it from the Christian-Jew angle either, since in "our" context, the implication however is that the non-Jew doesn't have to be physically circumcised. Without deepening it further right now, I would dare to say (by ear, and of what I can remember), that any of these controversies with Peter and Paul, were about the converted Jews who expected that also the Christians non-Jews should have been physically circumcised. I can't actually remember any teaching about any prohibition of circumcising at all, or of eating pork or of keeping the sabbath and so on as tradition had unfortunately through time manipulated, leaving only exterior rituals but empty of their original purpose. The implication though remains for us non-Jews in how much of all the old laws we are still obliged or not obliged to follow. [Honestly, I couldn't really say whether you could eat pork or not today, but I like it, LOL!, and my conscience if clean! Moreover, we have enough reason to believe that pork meat wouldn't be that dangerous today as it might have been in the past. Ironically, we do have swine-flu!] And here the distinction I mentioned some time ago between the "apodictic" and "casuistic" law, or better said, the laws according to the nature and morals of God, eternal and indisputable, and the juridical ones, social rules, based indeed on the principles of God, but subject to renewal (reshaping) through time, in order to follow the historical evolution and progress of the society. This is actually taken up and deepened further in that Ratzinger's book I mentioned earlier, as also that Rabbi's sincere reactions to certain Jesus' teaching that he as Jew had problems with accepting. As I understand it, it's precisely the relationship between the "physical Israel" and the "spiritual Israel" that creates the "Gordian knot" (no pun intended!). I wouldn't say either that scholastically one would be able to completely solve or explain everything, but at least one would add other perspectives (thus seeing it from different angles), provided that the approach is unbiased and of high quality, and last but not least, that has its foundation in our faith and in the truth. Blessings~ ... and union in the Spirit! __________________ But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit! ( 1 Cor. 6:17 ) Thanks a lot brother and I'm glad you found it edifying and thanks for reading it all my friend. GBY!
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6/20/2009 1:18 pm |
Brister, By the way, I follow in the footsteps of a LONG LINE of so-called 'Narrow Minded' people, and am proud to be one of them. Its just too bad others cannot wake up to the facts as well: Martin Luther (1483-1546) (Lutheran): "Luther ... proved, by the revelations of Daniel and St. John, by the epistles of St. Paul, St. Peter, and St. Jude, that the reign of Antichrist, predicted and described in the Bible, was the Papacy ... And all the people did say, Amen! A holy terror siezed their souls. It was Antichrist whom they beheld seated on the pontifical throne. This new idea, which derived greater strength from the prophetic descriptions launched forth by Luther into the midst of his contemporaries, inflicted the most terrible blow on Rome." Taken from J. H. Merle D'aubigne's History of the Reformation of the Sixteen Century, book vi, chapter xii, p. 215. Based on prophetic studies, Martin Luther finally declared, "We here are of the conviction that the papacy is the seat of the true and real Antichrist." (Aug. 18, 1520). Taken from The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by LeRoy Froom. Vol. 2., pg. 121. John Calvin (1509-1564) (Presbyterian): "Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt... I shall briefly show that (Paul's words in II Thess. 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy." Taken from Institutes of the Christian Religion, by John Calvin. John Knox (1505-1572) (Scotch Presbyterian): John Knox sought to counteract "that tyranny which the pope himself has for so many ages exercised over the church." As with Luther, he finally concluded that the Papacy was "the very antichrist, and son of perdition, of whom Paul speaks." The Zurich Letters, by John Knox, pg. 199. Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556) (Anglican): "Whereof it followeth Rome to be the seat of antichrist, and the pope to be very antichrist himself. I could prove the same by many other scriptures, old writers, and strong reasons." (Referring to prophecies in Revelation and Daniel.) Works by Cranmer, Vol. 1, pp. 6-7. Roger Williams (1603-1683) (First Baptist Pastor in America): Pastor Williams spoke of the Pope as "the pretended Vicar of Christ on earth, who sits as God over the Temple of God, exalting himself not only above all that is called God, but over the souls and consciences of all his vassals, yea over the Spirit of Christ, over the Holy Spirit, yea, and God himself...speaking against the God of heaven, thinking to change times and laws; but he is the son of perdition (II Thess. 2)." The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Froom, Vol. 3, pg. 52. The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647): "There is no other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin and son of perdition that exalteth himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God." Taken from Philip Schaff's, The Creeds of Christendom, With a History and Critical Notes, III, p. 658, 659, ch. 25, sec. 6. Cotton Mather (1663-172  (Congregational Theologian): "The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them." Taken from The Fall of Babylon by Cotton Mather in Froom's book, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 3, pg. 113.John Wesley (1703-1791) (Methodist): Speaking of the Papacy, John Wesley wrote, "He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers... He it is...that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped...claiming the highest power, and highest honour...claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone." Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, by John Wesley, pg. 110. A Great Cloud of Witnesses: "Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther, Calvin, Cranmer; in the seventeenth century, Bunyan, the translators of the King James Bible and the men who published the Westminster and Baptist confessions of Faith; Sir Isaac Newton, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards; and more recently Spurgeon, Bishop J.C. Ryle and Dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones; these men among countless others, all saw the office of the Papacy as the antichrist." Taken from All Roads Lead to Rome, by Michael de Semlyen. Dorchestor House Publications, p. 205. 1991. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/20/2009 1:08 pm |
Sorry but Im really just SICK of it all here. Its a real shame that people are so deceived by it all. Anyway, like I said, there comes a time when you have to just let people have what they have chosen. 2 Thessalonians, the Apostle Paul said God would send a strong delusion to those who want to cozy up to that "Man of Lawlessness" who sits in the seat of God, shewing himself that he is God. Nobody can say I didnt try to warn everyone. But Im through with it all. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/20/2009 1:05 pm |
BristerBate, Actually, I should not have merely spoken of your continual PERSONAL put-downs, I shouldve also said that in your post to me, you also ridicule GOD HIMSELF, for it was HE who used the various Beasts, and Scapegoat, as symbols to represent the points that He was wanting to get across to mankind in the Bible Prophecies. And what you said has NOTHING to do with anything that I said. You are just like MANY of the people here at BC, if you have no Bible support for what you say, then you get off the topic and resort to personal put-downs. And that is why it is of NO USE for me to be here anymore. People like you will ALWAYS 'win'. Its a wicked world we live in. You win, because you dont mind deviating from having the scruples necessary to keep from playing the game that way. ...and those who are innocent and ignorant are always deceived by it. They cannot see through the barrage of veiled underhanded hatred and twisting of the real facts. But people like yourself NEVER come out and do it openly, you always do it SUBTLY. I know just what you are. You havent fooled ME any. You are trying to make people come in unity with the Roman Catholic Church. And Protestantism today is so blind that they cannot see the dangers of it at all. Like sheep to the slaughter is what they are. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/20/2009 12:51 pm |
Didn't I write that this post wouldn't solve the "apparent" controversy? Actually I have a loooot I could write, but you seem not to "take it", because it always has to match your "preconceived doctrine" and your "zoo" predilection with "beasts" and "scapegoats" in order to not get "bored". Also, (as I mentioned many times), you always use parts of texts that suit your view, and avoid/ignore texts that don't, instead of discussing the context and the differences between them. One can't dialogue with narrow-minded. All in all, it's actually how much Jesus really means to you and what "authority" He had to "reinterpret" whatever you may call the Law(s) of God, and still makes us fully justified through Him. As I said, if He doesn't accuse us, our conscience is at peace with Him. _______________ But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26) ...so I dont. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/20/2009 11:26 am |
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom." Normally one is used to see things from the non-Jewish point of view, or from the Pharisaic Jews that "denied" Jesus the Messiah. If I were Jew of birth, I would undoubtedly have done the same as your family did, and you do and will continue to do. Hereby the danger of misconstruction, that also have been reality in certain Christian circles throughout history. (I've seen extremes in all views on BC as well!) It would sound as if Jesus had done away with everything that had to do with the old covenant, just because He instituted the new one. And here lies the core of the controversy: in not grasping this important detail! I've never thought it from the Christian-Jew angle either, since in "our" context, the implication however is that the non-Jew doesn't have to be physically circumcised. Without deepening it further right now, I would dare to say (by ear, and of what I can remember), that any of these controversies with Peter and Paul, were about the converted Jews who expected that also the Christians non-Jews should have been physically circumcised. I can't actually remember any teaching about any prohibition of circumcising at all, or of eating pork or of keeping the sabbath and so on as tradition had unfortunately through time manipulated, leaving only exterior rituals but empty of their original purpose. The implication though remains for us non-Jews in how much of all the old laws we are still obliged or not obliged to follow. [Honestly, I couldn't really say whether you could eat pork or not today, but I like it, LOL!, and my conscience if clean! Moreover, we have enough reason to believe that pork meat wouldn't be that dangerous today as it might have been in the past. Ironically, we do have swine-flu!] And here the distinction I mentioned some time ago between the "apodictic" and "casuistic" law, or better said, the laws according to the nature and morals of God, eternal and indisputable, and the juridical ones, social rules, based indeed on the principles of God, but subject to renewal (reshaping) through time, in order to follow the historical evolution and progress of the society. This is actually taken up and deepened further in that Ratzinger's book I mentioned earlier, as also that Rabbi's sincere reactions to certain Jesus' teaching that he as Jew had problems with accepting. As I understand it, it's precisely the relationship between the "physical Israel" and the "spiritual Israel" that creates the "Gordian knot" (no pun intended!). I wouldn't say either that scholastically one would be able to completely solve or explain everything, but at least one would add other perspectives (thus seeing it from different angles), provided that the approach is unbiased and of high quality, and last but not least, that has its foundation in our faith and in the truth. Blessings~ ... and union in the Spirit! __________________ But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit! ( 1 Cor. 6:17 )
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6/20/2009 10:03 am |
Sabre, I'm going to leave this discussion now. There are obviously two ways to view this, as with baptism and once saved, always saved. I'll assume you're Jewish. I truly don't want to take you from your faith, but there are those that will benefit from my teachings, and so I will continue in the faith that God has given to me. This too is biblical. I believe I said we have to balance laws and grace, within the teachings that God has provided to us, and within a personal walk with God in Christ. Have a nice weekend.
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6/19/2009 10:42 pm |
I get it. I offend some people. So who doesn't? If you are not reading what I am writing, I'd appreciate it if you let me know, so it wont consume my time further. I only responded again because you said you wanted to discuss further.
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6/19/2009 10:22 pm |
One more scripture reference please. Galatians 5: 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Jer 31:33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD. I will place my Law within them, and write it upon their hearts; I will be their God, and they shall be my people." --------------------------------------------------------------- What is clear to me is that the composition of Laws written within each believer, is as telling of the hand that wrote it (G-d?), as it is of the substance to which it was written on (stone or flesh?). "So then, the Law is holy, and the Commandment is holy and just and good." Rom 7:12 Eze 36:26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. Jn 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. Jn 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me 1 Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments 1 Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 2 Jn 6 And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. Rev 12:17 who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
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6/19/2009 10:12 pm |
Sabre, I cannot consider the matter closed. I found two scripture references where God chooses "letter of the law", so I guess I don't understand the offense in the terminology. Luke 16: 17 - « But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the law to fail. Romans 2: 27 - And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God The letter of the law refers to the written commandments. I trust Romans 2: 29 would refer to the righteousness of walking after what God has placed in our hearts, not walking after the letter of the law. This might get a little off track discussing the verses you gave but nonetheless... Luke 16:17 that you gave where your translation given says, "letter," is actually Yod, which is the smallest letter in Hebrew. So we know for Truth, "It is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away than for one small Yod to fail." Agreed. As for Romans 2:27 is a different word all together in the massoretic texts which are the templates for translation. Here it speaks of an uncircumcised, man that keeps the Law, will presume to judge a circumcised Jew who has the LETTER and is circumcised but does not keep the law. LETTER here is a different word altogether, Gramma, which means a note, ie the written word of G-d, not an alphabetical letter as before. Verse :29 says that a Jew is one who is circumcised of heart, in the spirit, and not in the LETTER, whose praise is not of men but G-d. Ok. This is talking about inwardly we must follow the Royal Law of Christ, which is keeping His Commandments which are all the original Ten Commandments, but with LOVE inwardly. Male circumcision profits nothing in itself spiritually.* A practicing Jew is circumcised on the 8th day of his life today as was then, in keeping with the Note given to Moses from G-d, speaking of Abraham in the commandment to circumcise (Gen. 17:10-14 and Lev. 12:3). Now, could I say that I am holy because I was circumcised by my parents request as an infant? NO! Inwardly, I have to have the circumcision of the heart by the indwelling of Christ to be a Spiritually new Jew! But lets try to apply this meaning to your comment about reinstating the law is severance from Christ. Ok, if your statement were true, now that I have been circumcised as an infant as the ordinance Law commands, and again, if your statement is true, then I WAS SEVERED FROM CHRIST FOR HAVING BEEN SUBJECTED AS AN INFANT TO OBEDIENCE AND "REINSTATEMENT" OF THE LAW of Ordinances!!! G-D FORBID!! This is precisely why I take issue with your language in the generalization and blanket statement you made! Now there is a flesh Jew, who does not eat pork (like me), and is circumcised (like me), and who follows the Ten Commandments to his ability everyday (like me), who studies the Word on Shabbat Friday nights (like me) in keep the command, and He sees the Law as Just, Holy and GOOD (like me); now by your statement of "reinstating the letter of the Law is severance from Christ." It is NO STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION THAT YOU HAVE SAID I AM SEVERED FROM THE BODY OF CHRIST FOR ALL THESE THINGS, AND THUS ACCORDING TO Romans 2:29, NOT A JEW at all! If I were immature in the Word (unexposed to the N.T.) and an adherent to orthodox Judaism and looking for greater truth and freedom, I would be instantly turned away from Christ by YOUR words! And why shouldn't I be, the REAL me doesnt even fit your criteria for being in Christ... as you just implied with your statement (or such is deduced easily) I was in a state of SEVERANCE from Christ! And you somehow maintain that your statement is not damaging to the fidelity of G-d's Word??? And when I have children and have my son circumcised and "reinstate" that ancient Law given by G-d on his 8th day, according to you, will I be severing him or myself from Christ...or both? I'd like to know! If your statement is true, this is its implication! And the Apostle Paul was severed from Christ too I suppose according to your statement, when he reinstated the Law of circumcision in Acts 16:3 "Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek." Paul circumcised a man for the sake of the Jews to which he preached, and you won't concede an ill conceived statement for them, but instead insist it's stalwartly biblical? This is how I see it, quite frankly. And it's offensive to the Truth that is within me.
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6/19/2009 9:01 pm |
I didn't say you could "offend" them, I said you could turn them from the truth of Christ by your words. I'm not afraid of offending for truth either, but I am for the latter. Yes G-d's words do offend all the time. And Christ is an offense. I am not challenging a Jot of His Word, but yours. You said no "words can make Christ appealing to Jews. That's the work of the Holy Spirit." Once again I couldn't disagree more. If words can't make Christ appealing to the Jews, what in the world were the apostles doing preaching over the continents, and risking their lives, and suffering death for??? Why did Christ say to the apostle, "feed My Sheep????" Romans 10:17 "SO FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD." You said, "the truth of Christ is an offense to those in the laws," Ok. So today, I am IN the Law and IT in ME, of thou shalt not murder, and Thou shalt not commit adultery...so now Christ is an offense to me???????? G-d forbid! Christ was in the Laws, as were the disciples, was Christ an offense to Himself? Or were the Apostles and offense for following the Law which G-d gave? OF course not! You said we should speak truth and not what is pleasing to people. Agreed. What is truth? Christ said He is the Truth. His Words are Truth. He did NOT say, "to reinstate the Letter of the Law is severance from Christ." You did. He said the OPPOSITE. He said, who is it that loves me? Those that keep my commandments." You said, "I'm quite sure there are as many gentiles offended in Christ as there are Jews no matter how you slice the words." Again I didnt say offended in Christ by His words is the issue, I said turned off from the truth of Christ by similar statements to what YOU said. His word is not in question. You said, "Not wanting to offend isn't a very good reason to change my stance." AGAIN, I didn't even mention not offending Jews with HIS words. I stated your words/statement could turn them off. Your statement in question is NOT in the Bible! Are you equating your statement to one from Christ?????
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6/19/2009 8:41 pm |
In sabre's response: "Well intentioned, and G-d fearing Jewish people are turned off from the truth of Christ precisely because of statements like the one you made. I am telling you I know this for a fact." I don't mind that I offend people. Christ is an offense. God's scriptures offend people all the time. I don't mind that I'm the most vocal person on here right now. This is a subject I'm interested in, and I'm not afraid to carry on a discussion. I like to back up what I believe. No "words" can make Christ appealing to the Jews. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The truth of Christ is an offense to those in the laws, yet we have a responsibility to speak truth, not what sounds pleasing to people. I'm quite sure there are as many gentiles offended in Christ as there are Jews no matter how you slice the words. This is why we are to each have our own personal walk with Christ. You aren't required to believe like me. You are free. Not wanting to offend isn't a very good reason to change my stance. Yes G-d's words do offend all the time. And Christ is an offense. I am not challenging a Jot of His Word, but yours. You said no "words can make Christ appealing to Jews. That's the work of the Holy Spirit." Once again I couldn't disagree more. If words can't make Christ appealing to the Jews, what in the world were the apostles doing preaching over the continents, and risking their lives, and suffering death for??? Why did Christ say to the apostle, "feed My Sheep????" Romans 10:17 "SO FAITH COMES BY HEARING, AND HEARING BY THE WORD." You said, "the truth of Christ is an offense to those in the laws," Ok. So today, I am IN the Law and IT in ME, of thou shalt not murder, and Thou shalt not commit adultery...so now Christ is an offense to me???????? G-d forbid! Christ was in the Laws, as were the disciples, was Christ an offense to Himself? Or were the Apostles and offense for following the Law which G-d gave? OF course not! You said we should speak truth and not what is pleasing to people. Agreed. What is truth? Christ said He is the Truth. His Words are Truth. He did NOT say, "to reinstate the Letter of the Law is severance from Christ." You did. He said the OPPOSITE. He said, who is it that loves me? Those that keep my commandments." You said, "I'm quite sure there are as many gentiles offended in Christ as there are Jews no matter how you slice the words." Again I didnt say offended in Christ by His words is the issue, I said turned off from the truth of Christ by similar statements to what YOU said. His word is not in question. You said, "Not wanting to offend isn't a very good reason to change my stance." AGAIN, I didn't even mention not offending Jews with HIS words. I stated your words/statement could turn them off. Your statement in question is NOT in the Bible! Are you equating your statement to one from Christ?????
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6/19/2009 7:56 pm |
One more scripture reference please. Galatians 5: 18. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
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6/19/2009 7:39 pm |
I made it very clear in my questions to you to say "the letter of the Law" precisely as you did, so I do not know what that first sentence is intended to mean. And who said anything about being justified by the law?? That's right out. "Reinstating the Letter of the Law is severance from Christ." How could you ever reinstate what was, by your own admission, never taken away, suspended, or changed by one jot or letter????????? What is there to reinstate?????????? Something that never was un-instated? If you dont see the inherent and glaring contradiction in those words, or how it could easily be misconstrued by immature Christians, then I'm at a total loss to your logic. And I take issue with your words in part, because you seem to be among the most vocal here now, and freely giving opinions in many places, and frequently. And there is nothing wrong with that, but if you post your opinion in public, you cannot expect immunity from dissension. And in some cases you should welcome it, so that you may learn. No teacher worth there salt is immune to learning. Or potentially in seeing a better way of putting something. Well intentioned, and G-d fearing Jewish people are turned off from the truth of Christ precisely because of statements like the one you made. I am telling you I know this for a fact. You have the freedom to say as you please. But, you cannot say I did not warn you against such statements, which are NOT precedent in the WORD. And I could not in good conscience allow the statement to go unchallenged, because I know it can bring harm, misconstrued or otherwise. Now I will consider the matter closed, and say I am sorry you were offended. It was not my intention. My intention was to point out what I know could be potentially harmful, in a strong and concise way so that it be taken seriously. You are now of course free to do with it what you may. Blessings in Christ Luke 16: 17 - « But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the law to fail. Romans 2: 27 - And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God The letter of the law refers to the written commandments. I trust Romans 2: 29 would refer to the righteousness of walking after what God has placed in our hearts, not walking after the letter of the law.
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6/19/2009 6:50 pm |
In sabre's response: "Well intentioned, and G-d fearing Jewish people are turned off from the truth of Christ precisely because of statements like the one you made. I am telling you I know this for a fact." I don't mind that I offend people. Christ is an offense. God's scriptures offend people all the time. I don't mind that I'm the most vocal person on here right now. This is a subject I'm interested in, and I'm not afraid to carry on a discussion. I like to back up what I believe. No "words" can make Christ appealing to the Jews. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. The truth of Christ is an offense to those in the laws, yet we have a responsibility to speak truth, not what sounds pleasing to people. I'm quite sure there are as many gentiles offended in Christ as there are Jews no matter how you slice the words. This is why we are to each have our own personal walk with Christ. You aren't required to believe like me. You are free. Not wanting to offend isn't a very good reason to change my stance.
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6/19/2009 6:22 pm |
An interesting post, Terrie-with many interesting opinions. I agree with what you wrote, BB & Longing. I hope everyone on this post(myself included will read, study, and meditate more on the Word, asking the Holy Spirit for instruction in the knowledge to understand the wisdom of it). One thing i'm curious about is this: What happened to the other 603 commandments, and where is the scriptural basis for separating them from the ten? Isn't the Torah one? NdnThomas and Ladylightwalker forever. .
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6/19/2009 5:58 pm |
I don't believe I said you can't reinstate the law. I said: "Even though we are not to invalidate the laws, Christ is grace from the letter of the law. You can't reinstate the letter of the law in Christ, just the righteousness of the laws. Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ. Galatians 5 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have [Heb+12:15%3B+2-Pet+3:17] fallen from grace. Once we are in Christ, God will very much establish the laws (in Christ), but we already know we personally as man can't fulfill the laws. Christ made that quite clear in his address concerning the laws. That's the entire gospel message. If we could do that, there would be no need for a saviour. How do we believe we'll obey the laws, when the entire gospel says we can't. I'm not saying we disregard the laws. What I am saying, is know when you need grace and cease striving. God longs to have us enter his rest. Further I wish to submit this verse: Romans 13: 10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. And who said anything about being justified by the law?? That's right out. "Reinstating the Letter of the Law is severance from Christ." How could you ever reinstate what was, by your own admission, never taken away, suspended, or changed by one jot or letter????????? What is there to reinstate?????????? Something that never was un-instated? If you dont see the inherent and glaring contradiction in those words, or how it could easily be misconstrued by immature Christians, then I'm at a total loss to your logic. And I take issue with your words in part, because you seem to be among the most vocal here now, and freely giving opinions in many places, and frequently. And there is nothing wrong with that, but if you post your opinion in public, you cannot expect immunity from dissension. And in some cases you should welcome it, so that you may learn. No teacher worth there salt is immune to learning. Or potentially in seeing a better way of putting something. Well intentioned, and G-d fearing Jewish people are turned off from the truth of Christ precisely because of statements like the one you made. I am telling you I know this for a fact. You have the freedom to say as you please. But, you cannot say I did not warn you against such statements, which are NOT precedent in the WORD. And I could not in good conscience allow the statement to go unchallenged, because I know it can bring harm, misconstrued or otherwise. Now I will consider the matter closed, and say I am sorry you were offended. It was not my intention. My intention was to point out what I know could be potentially harmful, in a strong and concise way so that it be taken seriously. You are now of course free to do with it what you may. Blessings in Christ
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6/19/2009 4:48 pm |
nevermind Im sorry I guess there just comes a time when you have to walk away and let people be deceived. I dont even know why Ive bothered with this like I have for so long a time. I must be an idiot.
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6/19/2009 4:30 pm |
Yes, that Romans verse is wonderful and really does sum it up well. Ok, now that I hope I established I wasn't attacking your character but merely your choice of words, as I don't see any gross or glaring differences in our beliefs on the matter... hopefully I can explain a bit further. Firstly though, you just said, "Anyone that's slicing hairs over words will find fault regardless of the words used." I couldn't disagree more really. I've made thousands of comments here and I am not a fault finder. Furthermore, as Christ Himself said, "man does not live by bread alone BUT BY EVERY WORD OF G-D." Satan tempts with the twisting of a single word. The balance of the scriptures rests in the fidelity of EVERY WORD. And every idle word one speaks will be brought into Judgement. So, with that being said, you maintain the word "reinstating" was not in poor choice... Here's the only two definitions of the term "reinstate" listed in the dictionary. REINSTATE. 1. To bring back into use or existence. 2. To restore to a previous condition or position. 1. Can you explain to me where it's possible that the Letter of the Law was taken out of EXISTENCE, and thus satisfying this definition? or 2. Can you please tell me when the LETTER of the LAW (not one's unclean relation to it as I contend) was taken from its previous condition, so that it could possibly then even be restored (thus satisfying the second definition of the word given)? If you can show me scripturally where the "Letter of the Law" would be parcel to either these definitions of reinstate(ing)in the context of "Reinstating the Law would be severance from Christ," I will happily concede the point to you. Honestly, if you can I'd be astonished to hear it. And remember in this post we are talking about the Ten Commandments Law. And I restate for added emphasis that we live by EVERY WORD OF G-D, SO splitting hairs about a WORD that is said pertaining to scripture should not be disparaged any more than the Letter of the Law should be. If anyone presumes to be a teacher of the Word, or minister to anyone, each word that proceeds out of your mouth must be marked and tried. Judgement begins with the teachers, isn't this wisdom? thanks again, Gb! Galatians 5 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have [Heb+12:15%3B+2-Pet+3:17] fallen from grace. Once we are in Christ, God will very much establish the laws (in Christ), but we already know we personally as man can't fulfill the laws. Christ made that quite clear in his address concerning the laws. That's the entire gospel message. If we could do that, there would be no need for a saviour. How do we believe we'll obey the laws, when the entire gospel says we can't. I'm not saying we disregard the laws. What I am saying, is know when you need grace and cease striving. God longs to have us enter his rest. Further I wish to submit this verse: Romans 13: 10. Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
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6/19/2009 1:48 pm |
"Reinstating" and what I perceived as negative connotations surrounding what you called the "letter of the Law," were poor choices of words in MY opinion, quite frankly. And it is MY opinion, and I have the blessed freedom to give it. And I so did, respectfully. Sorry, Sabre, these are not poor choices of words. Anyone that's slicing hairs over words will find fault regardless of the words used. Claudia takes offense to being free in Christ, and it doesn't matter how well I choose the words, she will take offense, for she leans heavy on the laws. She argues against the freedoms of Christ, in my opinion, and yet I defend her posts that make biblical sense. Concerning your addressing me as a fault teacher, I guess you addressed my post, and then I took the after-thought post as addresing me. Thanks for the clarification. Romans 3 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? [Luke+20:16%3B+Rom+3:4] May it never be! On the contrary, we [Matt+5:17%3B+Rom+3:4%2C+6%3B+8:4] establish the Law. This has always been my stand on the fulfilment of the laws in Christ. Ok, now that I hope I established I wasn't attacking your character but merely your choice of words, as I don't see any gross or glaring differences in our beliefs on the matter... hopefully I can explain a bit further. Firstly though, you just said, "Anyone that's slicing hairs over words will find fault regardless of the words used." I couldn't disagree more really. I've made thousands of comments here and I am not a fault finder. Furthermore, as Christ Himself said, "man does not live by bread alone BUT BY EVERY WORD OF G-D." Satan tempts with the twisting of a single word. The balance of the scriptures rests in the fidelity of EVERY WORD. And every idle word one speaks will be brought into Judgement. So, with that being said, you maintain the word "reinstating" was not in poor choice... Here's the only two definitions of the term "reinstate" listed in the dictionary. REINSTATE. 1. To bring back into use or existence. 2. To restore to a previous condition or position. 1. Can you explain to me where it's possible that the Letter of the Law was taken out of EXISTENCE, and thus satisfying this definition? or 2. Can you please tell me when the LETTER of the LAW (not one's unclean relation to it as I contend) was taken from its previous condition, so that it could possibly then even be restored (thus satisfying the second definition of the word given)? If you can show me scripturally where the "Letter of the Law" would be parcel to either these definitions of reinstate(ing)in the context of "Reinstating the Law would be severance from Christ," I will happily concede the point to you. Honestly, if you can I'd be astonished to hear it. And remember in this post we are talking about the Ten Commandments Law. And I restate for added emphasis that we live by EVERY WORD OF G-D, SO splitting hairs about a WORD that is said pertaining to scripture should not be disparaged any more than the Letter of the Law should be. If anyone presumes to be a teacher of the Word, or minister to anyone, each word that proceeds out of your mouth must be marked and tried. Judgement begins with the teachers, isn't this wisdom? thanks again, Gb!
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6/19/2009 12:42 pm |
To change the Sabbath is to abolish the Law. Dan: 7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws 2Thes:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mk: 7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Actually I have a loooot I could write, but you seem not to "take it", because it always has to match your "preconceived doctrine" and your "zoo" predilection with "beasts" and "scapegoats" in order to not get "bored". Also, (as I mentioned many times), you always use parts of texts that suit your view, and avoid/ignore texts that don't, instead of discussing the context and the differences between them. One can't dialogue with narrow-minded. All in all, it's actually how much Jesus really means to you and what "authority" He had to "reinterpret" whatever you may call the Law(s) of God, and still makes us fully justified through Him. As I said, if He doesn't accuse us, our conscience is at peace with Him. _______________ But the comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)
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6/19/2009 11:58 am |
First of all lets settle this, I didn't call you a "false teacher" as you state. I don't know you. Secondly, I didn't say you would be the least in heaven, as you thusly said. If you care to note, that scripture post wasn't quoted to you at all. And is a solitary post of scripture admonishing anyone who disparages the Law, out of Christ's own mouth. I didn't put that shoe on your foot... What I said was the LANGUAGE that you use, such as, "the letter of the Law," I know for a fact can serve to lead some people astray. And the points that I elicidated in my post quoting you speak for themselves on my thoughts in the matter. You said also, "I don't know how the mature in Christ can't get this." I said in my post to you it could lead "IMMATURE Christians" astray. Sorry you were offended. But, I rather get tremendously offended when there is even a hint of a disparaging remark toward a single Letter of the Law. And your post, in my opinion, frankly smacked of that. You seem to have, from what I can tell, essentially the right idea, but I do take issue with the LANGUAGE that you used (which my whole post was about), as it can be easily misconstrued. If you do not believe me that it can be misconstrued, then why did Claudia also take issue with what you said, while I was in the process of writing my post? "Reinstating" and what I perceived as negative connotations surrounding what you called the "letter of the Law," were poor choices of words in MY opinion, quite frankly. And it is MY opinion, and I have the blessed freedom to give it. And I so did, respectfully. Thanks and GB! Sorry, Sabre, these are not poor choices of words. Anyone that's slicing hairs over words will find fault regardless of the words used. Claudia takes offense to being free in Christ, and it doesn't matter how well I choose the words, she will take offense, for she leans heavy on the laws. She argues against the freedoms of Christ, in my opinion, and yet I defend her posts that make biblical sense. Concerning your addressing me as a fault teacher, I guess you addressed my post, and then I took the after-thought post as addresing me. Thanks for the clarification. Romans 3 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? [Luke+20:16%3B+Rom+3:4] May it never be! On the contrary, we [Matt+5:17%3B+Rom+3:4%2C+6%3B+8:4] establish the Law. This has always been my stand on the fulfilment of the laws in Christ.
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6/19/2009 11:35 am |
Sabre, you wrote in your previous post: "Once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law, and free to walk after what has been written on our hearts." - if the writing of the laws WITHIN- upon your heart, are different than what was written WITHOUT- upon stone, the author of those words CANNOT be the same! That would be abolishing the LAW, to which Christ said would NOT be done until heaven and earth had passed away!" The things I stated above are biblical. I never said that God would give us a different heart than what's written. If God is truly leading us, then we will not sin. If we're walking in the spirit as we ought, doing what we want is what God is placing in our hearts, for he is faithful. If we seek to walk after the flesh, that's a different story, and not the walk we were called to be in in Christ. We aren't free to walk after the flesh. We're free "in Christ", who will not lead us into flesh sin. The Pharisees continually brought charges against Christ according to the letter of the law, and Christ rebuked them as not understanding what the laws really were. If we were to stare at the laws and be honest about what Christ was doing in light of the pharisee accusations, we would have to acknowledge that there were things he was doing that didn't slot into one of the 10 commandments, according to their accusations. There would be no accusation if there wasn't written a commandment that they could use against him. Yet he didn't sin. They were not righteous because they were pious in the laws. They were merely staring at the letter of the law. I never said you do away with the law. God will never lead you into sin. If we are abiding in God, he will steer us in right choices, for he writes his will on our hearts. We don't have to fear falling short of the law, for we have an advocate in Christ. We cannot find favor with God by walking in pharisaic righteousness. The scriptures are explicit, in that we who seek to be justified in the laws are severed from Christ, for Christ has come to set us free. We still can't overthrow the laws. I don't believe I said that. Those that argue laws vs. grace are splitting hairs over God's word, for God's word addresses both, and both are supported in scripture, yet we are not to invalidate the laws. I am very offended that you could accuse me of being the least in the kingdom for bringing scripture to the table, that people can more fully understand the subject. I am bringing biblical truth to the table. The laws are a tudor to bring us to Christ. I don't know how the mature in Christ can't get this. If this is written, then you invalidate the scriptures arguing law. Once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law. Scriptures also say that not one letter of the law will pass away. And I never said it would. I endorsed it. I would thank you to stop calling me a false teacher. What I said was the LANGUAGE that you use, such as, "the letter of the Law," I know for a fact can serve to lead some people astray. And the points that I elicidated in my post quoting you speak for themselves on my thoughts in the matter. You said also, "I don't know how the mature in Christ can't get this." I said in my post to you it could lead "IMMATURE Christians" astray. Sorry you were offended. But, I rather get tremendously offended when there is even a hint of a disparaging remark toward a single Letter of the Law. And your post, in my opinion, frankly smacked of that. You seem to have, from what I can tell, essentially the right idea, but I do take issue with the LANGUAGE that you used (which my whole post was about), as it can be easily misconstrued. If you do not believe me that it can be misconstrued, then why did Claudia also take issue with what you said, while I was in the process of writing my post? "Reinstating" and what I perceived as negative connotations surrounding what you called the "letter of the Law," were poor choices of words in MY opinion, quite frankly. And it is MY opinion, and I have the blessed freedom to give it. And I so did, respectfully. Thanks and GB!
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6/19/2009 10:05 am |
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom." The things I stated above are biblical. I never said that God would give us a different heart than what's written. If God is truly leading us, then we will not sin. If we're walking in the spirit as we ought, doing what we want is what God is placing in our hearts, for he is faithful. If we seek to walk after the flesh, that's a different story, and not the walk we were called to be in in Christ. We aren't free to walk after the flesh. We're free "in Christ", who will not lead us into flesh sin. The Pharisees continually brought charges against Christ according to the letter of the law, and Christ rebuked them as not understanding what the laws really were. If we were to stare at the laws and be honest about what Christ was doing in light of the pharisee accusations, we would have to acknowledge that there were things he was doing that didn't slot into one of the 10 commandments, according to their accusations. There would be no accusation if there wasn't written a commandment that they could use against him. Yet he didn't sin. They were not righteous because they were pious in the laws. They were merely staring at the letter of the law. I never said you do away with the law. God will never lead you into sin. If we are abiding in God, he will steer us in right choices, for he writes his will on our hearts. We don't have to fear falling short of the law, for we have an advocate in Christ. We cannot find favor with God by walking in pharisaic righteousness. The scriptures are explicit, in that we who seek to be justified in the laws are severed from Christ, for Christ has come to set us free. We still can't overthrow the laws. I don't believe I said that. Those that argue laws vs. grace are splitting hairs over God's word, for God's word addresses both, and both are supported in scripture, yet we are not to invalidate the laws. I am very offended that you could accuse me of being the least in the kingdom for bringing scripture to the table, that people can more fully understand the subject. I am bringing biblical truth to the table. The laws are a tudor to bring us to Christ. I don't know how the mature in Christ can't get this. If this is written, then you invalidate the scriptures arguing law. Once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law. Scriptures also say that not one letter of the law will pass away. And I never said it would. I endorsed it. I would thank you to stop calling me a false teacher.
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6/19/2009 9:57 am |
To change the Sabbath is to abolish the Law. Dan: 7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws 2Thes:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mk: 7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. To change the Sabbath is to teach men to violate the Law, in that it presumes to set a precedent of new tradition over the unadulterated Word of G-d. And therefore homage to something other than the fear and reverence of G-d. And that is a sin, indeed. I do strive to keep the true Friday night to Saturday Shabbat because I want the fidelity of the True Word and NOT traditions of men. But, what BB said was correct (in this sense) in that the meaning of the Shabbat commandment is not JUST in keeping the seventh day. It is far MORE than that. In the context he used the term sabbath, meaning "rest," I believe he is implying that that "rest" is everyday when you are IN Christ and He in you. Therefore you must take that rest everyday, and keep it Holy, as He is Holy. Keeping the precepts of Christ but one day a week might give the appearance of keeping the Shabbat Command, but surely is greatly still lacking! With True Love of G-d we will keep it everyday! We are children of the Light. For us the DAY has dawned, and we are not children of the night. Therefore in a sense, we are stuck in one perpetual day of Sabbath "rest" so long as HE is with us and lights our path as the Bright Morning star. He is Light. And He became our Sabbath "rest." With all this being said, it is NOT right to presume to elevate Sunday above the other days of the week, according to the Word. It is however, in-keeping with the fidelity of the Word of G-d to elevate the True Shabbat for study and worship... but only for our own sake, not G-d's. It was created and commanded for man to enter this rest on the last day of the week so that we are disciplined in learning the ways of the Lord, and to commemorate the written Word of creation,and keeping that Light ahead of us each week. If it were not for this Command given to the people, would the Word have been passed from generation to generation for these thousands of years, or would the people have forgotten it long ago in procrastination and lack of discipline in their study? I think we know! The Shabbat Commandment is Holy and Good, and not only still valid, but more meaningful today! GBY!
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6/19/2009 9:39 am |
nevermind Im sorry I guess there just comes a time when you have to walk away and let people be deceived. I dont even know why Ive bothered with this like I have for so long a time. I must be an idiot. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/19/2009 9:33 am |
TO ELABORATE on what I just said, its called THE FALLING AWAY OF THE CHURCH... 2 Thessalonians 2: 3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of lawlessness be revealed, the son of perdition; 4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Apostle Paul said "the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) doth already work" it had already begun in the times of the Early Church, because the Papacy was being formed. The entire goal was to put man in the place of God by abolishing and/or changing God's 10 Commandments. Satan has formulated ALL SORTS of plausible sounding theories about why it is acceptable to change ir delete the commandments. REMEMBER in regards to the 7th day Sabbath, the Sabbath is the SIGN that we worship the TRUE GOD, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH and as the One who SANCTIFIES US and makes us holy and not we ourselves... The Sabbath is REST from our own works, and Jesus NEVER gave us 'another day': Hebrews 4: 8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. But SATAN has successfully so twisted everything around that much of the Christian World regards keeping the 7th day Sabbath as "Legalism".. COMPLETELY TURNING THINGS AROUND BACKWARDS is what Satan has done. "The Man of Sin" (Lawlessness) who wants to put himself to sit in the seat of God shewing himself that he is God... LAUGHS. Dan: 7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth... He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, is God himself on earth." New York Catechism SUNDAY is our MARK of authority. . . . The church is ABOVE the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923. THINK about what you are actually advocating.
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6/19/2009 9:31 am |
WHICH "letter of the Law" are you proposing we have REMOVED? Thou shalt not commit adultery? Thou shalt not kill? Dont you realize that Jesus EXPANDED upon the Law? He said You have heard Thou shalt not kill but Im telling you, even if you are angry with your brother you have violated the Law of God and are in danger of the Judgement. Now SURELY you dont propose that we make sure we arent getting angry with our neighbor but that its alright now to "kill" him literally since we "arent under the letter of the Law"? What about Thou shalt not commit adultery? What, can we commit adultery on Tuesdays now? Or are we not to look upon a man or woman with lust now so we can be "in the Spirit" but we are free to literally have sex with another man's wife or another woman's husband since the "letter of the law" doesnt matter now? Im asking you LITERALLY which one of the 10 commandments are we now free to violate the "Letter" of it? If you want to know THE TRUTH, Brister Bate ONLY MEANS THE SABBATH. What he REALLY is getting at here is that its now "okay for man to change the 7th Day Sabbath to Sunday". Unless Im wrong and he really means its ok now to worship idols or bow to graven images? since the "Letter of the law" no longer matters? OF COURSE he doesnt mean that! People who claim this REALLY MEAN ITS OK FOR THE POPE, A MERE CREATED BEING, TO CHANGE THE 7TH DAY SABBATH. That is what they are getting at. You need to STOP AND THINK of what you are really advocating here. REMEMBER Jesus clearly said not one jot nor tittle of the Law (meaning not one dotting of an i or crossing of a t) could change from the Law till heaven and earth pass away. Did heaven and earth pass away and Im unaware of this? You see, when people start making this false assumption that keeping the "letter" of the Law is LEGALISM then what you are REALLY SAYING is that God the Father is LEGALISTIC, which He is NOT and never was. The 7th day Sabbath was instituted because in 6 says God created the heavens and the earth and rested the 7th day. That will NEVER EVER CHANGE, no matter how man may try to obliterate God's Law. IN FACT the entire Protestant Reformation FAILED on this ONE POINT regarding the 7th Day Sabbath, because it was all between SOLA SCRIPTURA and the Word of God alone, basing our doctrine on THAT and basing it upon "what the church says".... human TRADITION. THAT is what this is really all about. And people will go on and on about how "the law wasnt done away with" UNTIL it comes to the 7th day Sabbath then SUDDENLY they change their tune. People need to WAKE UP on this point, for it is all coming down to GOD VERSES HUMAN TRADITION. Thats what this FINAL CONFLICT IS ALL ABOUT. and Im not just speaking to you, Im speaking to everyone here. People need to really become AWARE of whats going on here in Christianity today. Satan is seeking to set aside God's Law, either altogether or else to CHANGE IT, and he strikes at the VERY HEART of God's Law, THE 7TH DAY SABBATH... THE SIGN OF GOD AS OUR CREATOR... Dare ANY mere man change God's 10 Commandments? What you said is exactly what John Wesley, Methodist Protestant Reformer SAID was the great delusion, spoken of by the Apostle Paul. You said, "Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ." "In the highest rank of the enemies of the gospel of Christ," said Wesley, "are they who openly and explicitly 'judge the law' itself, and 'speak evil of the law;' who teach men to break (to dissolve, to loose, to untie the obligation of) not one only, whether of the least or of the greatest, but all the commandments at a stroke. . . . The most surprising of all the circumstances that attend this strong delusion, is that they who are given up to it, really believe that they honor Christ by overthrowing His law, and that they are magnifying His office while they are destroying His doctrine! Yea, they honor Him just as Judas did when he said, 'Hail, Master, and kissed Him.' And He may as justly say to every one of them, 'Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?' It is no other than betraying Him with a kiss, to talk of His blood, and take away His crown; to set light by any part of His law, under pretense of advancing His gospel. Nor indeed can anyone escape this charge, who preaches faith in any such a manner as either directly or indirectly tends to set aside any branch of obedience: who preaches Christ so as to disannul, or weaken in any wise, the least of the commandments of God."---Wesley, sermon 25. . BE CAREFUL because now "Protestants" are in alignment with Roman Catholicism. This has happened little by little over the centuries. Now I realize everyone is going to get all angry with me but what good am I if I cant stand up for God? NOTHING. Satan is seeking to set aside God's Law, either altogether or else to CHANGE IT, and he strikes at the VERY HEART of God's Law, THE 7TH DAY SABBATH... THE SIGN OF GOD AS OUR CREATOR... Claudia, the law wasn't done away with, period. It is satisfied in our personal walk in Christ. Yes the enemy is trying to set aside God's laws, which is why we need to be careful to honour all things written in God's word. Yet if we try to find our righteousness in the laws, we fail miserably in our belief that Christ sanctifies us and not the laws. This is where satan has his power, trying to get people to reject Christ's sufficiency for salvation. We remain right with God by remaining in right relationship with him, in that we do what he says in an active and living relationship, and that we walk after the Holy Spirit, not the letter of the law, not what was written on stone. The stone (10) commandments were to be our tudor to learn right from wrong.
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6/19/2009 9:04 am |
"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom."
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6/19/2009 8:50 am |
I agree with BristerBate. There's so much more involved than simply following a set of dos and don'ts, i.e. the 10 commandments. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all righteousness, and through Christ fulfills the laws. Christ rebuked those that clung to the letter of the law while they committed greater sins in the name of law keeping. God writes right from wrong on our hearts, and if those rebuked by Christ had been listening to their consciences, they would have known better than to sacrifice right choices in the name of legalism. God's word says that once we are in Christ we are no longer in need of the letter of the law, for the laws are our tutor to Christ, and once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law, and free to walk after what has been written on our hearts, for God will speak directly to our hearts. The letter of the law is for the law breakers, so they may know right from wrong. We no longer need that, for we have the Holy Spirit speaking directly to us right from wrong. If we walk in obedience to the Holy Spirit, assuming you're in Christ, we are fulfiling the laws of righteousness for we sit under God's counsel. Even though we are not to invalidate the laws, Christ is grace from the letter of the law. You can't reinstate the letter of the law in Christ, just the righteousness of the laws. Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ. Additionally, you cannot rightly say that "Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ." G-d forbid! In order to "Reinstate" something, it must have been made of none-effect. He did NOT come to abolish the law, suspend it, or even change a single letter! The heavens and earth would pass away before the LETTER of the LAW would. Violating the LETTER of the LAW IS transgression and sin. It is outward appearance of following the Law without Love of G-d and neighbor WITHIN that is severance from Christ. The LAW is Just, Holy, and good. It is people that are unclean apart from the Indwelling of Christ... NOT a single LETTER OF THE LAW is unclean. "Once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law, and free to walk after what has been written on our hearts." - if the writing of the laws WITHIN- upon your heart, are different than what was written WITHOUT- upon stone, the author of those words CANNOT be the same! That would be abolishing the LAW, to which Christ said would NOT be done until heaven and earth had passed away!
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6/19/2009 7:16 am |
Forgot to say: Jms:2: 8: If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11: For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12: So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. Its still not ok to kill, still not ok to commit adultery and still not ok to break the 7th day Sabbath. 10: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Think of the Sabbath. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/19/2009 7:08 am |
TO ELABORATE on what I just said, its called THE FALLING AWAY OF THE CHURCH... 2 Thessalonians 2: 3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of lawlessness be revealed, the son of perdition; 4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Apostle Paul said "the mystery of iniquity (lawlessness) doth already work" it had already begun in the times of the Early Church, because the Papacy was being formed. The entire goal was to put man in the place of God by abolishing and/or changing God's 10 Commandments. Satan has formulated ALL SORTS of plausible sounding theories about why it is acceptable to change ir delete the commandments. REMEMBER in regards to the 7th day Sabbath, the Sabbath is the SIGN that we worship the TRUE GOD, MAKER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH and as the One who SANCTIFIES US and makes us holy and not we ourselves... The Sabbath is REST from our own works, and Jesus NEVER gave us 'another day': Hebrews 4: 8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. But SATAN has successfully so twisted everything around that much of the Christian World regards keeping the 7th day Sabbath as "Legalism".. COMPLETELY TURNING THINGS AROUND BACKWARDS is what Satan has done. "The Man of Sin" (Lawlessness) who wants to put himself to sit in the seat of God shewing himself that he is God... LAUGHS. Dan: 7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth... He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, is God himself on earth." New York Catechism SUNDAY is our MARK of authority. . . . The church is ABOVE the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923. THINK about what you are actually advocating. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/19/2009 6:46 am |
I agree with BristerBate. There's so much more involved than simply following a set of dos and don'ts, i.e. the 10 commandments. The Holy Spirit will lead us into all righteousness, and through Christ fulfills the laws. Christ rebuked those that clung to the letter of the law while they committed greater sins in the name of law keeping. God writes right from wrong on our hearts, and if those rebuked by Christ had been listening to their consciences, they would have known better than to sacrifice right choices in the name of legalism. God's word says that once we are in Christ we are no longer in need of the letter of the law, for the laws are our tutor to Christ, and once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law, and free to walk after what has been written on our hearts, for God will speak directly to our hearts. The letter of the law is for the law breakers, so they may know right from wrong. We no longer need that, for we have the Holy Spirit speaking directly to us right from wrong. If we walk in obedience to the Holy Spirit, assuming you're in Christ, we are fulfiling the laws of righteousness for we sit under God's counsel. Even though we are not to invalidate the laws, Christ is grace from the letter of the law. You can't reinstate the letter of the law in Christ, just the righteousness of the laws. Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Thou shalt not kill? Dont you realize that Jesus EXPANDED upon the Law? He said You have heard Thou shalt not kill but Im telling you, even if you are angry with your brother you have violated the Law of God and are in danger of the Judgement. Now SURELY you dont propose that we make sure we arent getting angry with our neighbor but that its alright now to "kill" him literally since we "arent under the letter of the Law"? What about Thou shalt not commit adultery? What, can we commit adultery on Tuesdays now? Or are we not to look upon a man or woman with lust now so we can be "in the Spirit" but we are free to literally have sex with another man's wife or another woman's husband since the "letter of the law" doesnt matter now? Im asking you LITERALLY which one of the 10 commandments are we now free to violate the "Letter" of it? If you want to know THE TRUTH, Brister Bate ONLY MEANS THE SABBATH. What he REALLY is getting at here is that its now "okay for man to change the 7th Day Sabbath to Sunday". Unless Im wrong and he really means its ok now to worship idols or bow to graven images? since the "Letter of the law" no longer matters? OF COURSE he doesnt mean that! People who claim this REALLY MEAN ITS OK FOR THE POPE, A MERE CREATED BEING, TO CHANGE THE 7TH DAY SABBATH. That is what they are getting at. You need to STOP AND THINK of what you are really advocating here. REMEMBER Jesus clearly said not one jot nor tittle of the Law (meaning not one dotting of an i or crossing of a t) could change from the Law till heaven and earth pass away. Did heaven and earth pass away and Im unaware of this? You see, when people start making this false assumption that keeping the "letter" of the Law is LEGALISM then what you are REALLY SAYING is that God the Father is LEGALISTIC, which He is NOT and never was. The 7th day Sabbath was instituted because in 6 says God created the heavens and the earth and rested the 7th day. That will NEVER EVER CHANGE, no matter how man may try to obliterate God's Law. IN FACT the entire Protestant Reformation FAILED on this ONE POINT regarding the 7th Day Sabbath, because it was all between SOLA SCRIPTURA and the Word of God alone, basing our doctrine on THAT and basing it upon "what the church says".... human TRADITION. THAT is what this is really all about. And people will go on and on about how "the law wasnt done away with" UNTIL it comes to the 7th day Sabbath then SUDDENLY they change their tune. People need to WAKE UP on this point, for it is all coming down to GOD VERSES HUMAN TRADITION. Thats what this FINAL CONFLICT IS ALL ABOUT. and Im not just speaking to you, Im speaking to everyone here. People need to really become AWARE of whats going on here in Christianity today. Satan is seeking to set aside God's Law, either altogether or else to CHANGE IT, and he strikes at the VERY HEART of God's Law, THE 7TH DAY SABBATH... THE SIGN OF GOD AS OUR CREATOR... Dare ANY mere man change God's 10 Commandments? What you said is exactly what John Wesley, Methodist Protestant Reformer SAID was the great delusion, spoken of by the Apostle Paul. You said, "Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ." "In the highest rank of the enemies of the gospel of Christ," said Wesley, "are they who openly and explicitly 'judge the law' itself, and 'speak evil of the law;' who teach men to break (to dissolve, to loose, to untie the obligation of) not one only, whether of the least or of the greatest, but all the commandments at a stroke. . . . The most surprising of all the circumstances that attend this strong delusion, is that they who are given up to it, really believe that they honor Christ by overthrowing His law, and that they are magnifying His office while they are destroying His doctrine! Yea, they honor Him just as Judas did when he said, 'Hail, Master, and kissed Him.' And He may as justly say to every one of them, 'Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?' It is no other than betraying Him with a kiss, to talk of His blood, and take away His crown; to set light by any part of His law, under pretense of advancing His gospel. Nor indeed can anyone escape this charge, who preaches faith in any such a manner as either directly or indirectly tends to set aside any branch of obedience: who preaches Christ so as to disannul, or weaken in any wise, the least of the commandments of God."---Wesley, sermon 25. . BE CAREFUL because now "Protestants" are in alignment with Roman Catholicism. This has happened little by little over the centuries. Now I realize everyone is going to get all angry with me but what good am I if I cant stand up for God? NOTHING. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/18/2009 10:14 pm |
I don't think you're gonna solve this apparent controversy with your post, Terrie! The balance between being free from the Law, and to be obedient to the Law, can only be understood by the indwelling of the Spirit. Rationally, one could say that to please God you should follow His literally given rules, while spiritually one could say that He will lead one to His "essence" of the rules and therefore to automatically follow them. The approach is different! While first one HAD TO follow specific and detailed statutes, ordinances and commandments to get the blessing of God, now with the blessing and work of Jesus, the Holy Spirit's new nature in man, would LEAD to TUNE IN in the ESSENCE of God's LAW (the source behind ALL statutes and commandments), and therefore to FULFILL WHATEVER law that had been given! The LAW comes from WITHIN, because God Himself has written HIS NATURE in the believer! Consequently, the newborn ACCEPTS all of God's ever given "words" to His people, and can then "reshape" them, accordingly to one's own circumstances, culture and time in history. Not to comprehend this, it's the sign that the Holy Spirit is NOT properly indwelling, and the results are precisely to take the scriptures out of context, give them one's own interpretation and FORCE people to believe in humans' interpretations. The REST in the Lord for the Christian, IS NOT in keeping a SPECIFIC DAY, like the 7th day, and there are other verses that can be added to your 4th commandment's verses. (Fx: The Jews came together on THAT day, that's why Jesus and Paul preached to them on that specific day!) The whole teaching about JUSTIFYING ONE'S SINS in the name of the Lord, is a move of the Antichrist to confuse the minds of the weak! When you walk with the LORD, you don't sin! He is LORD = He has the last word in your actions, and to Him one responds and will have to respond! Normally the Antichrist doesn't explain what SIN is. (Being in the Spirit one KNOWS what sin is!) Don't let "man" pretend to judge the children of God! If The LORD doesn't accuse you, then you're FREE! AMEN! The power LIES now in His NEW LIFE, NOT in the following of the OLD written law to GET INTO THIS NEW LIFE! ALL LAW that pleases God will be AUTOMATICALLY FOLLOWED by the communion with the Lord, the Father and the Holy Spirit! Be aware of false teachers! Christ rebuked those that clung to the letter of the law while they committed greater sins in the name of law keeping. God writes right from wrong on our hearts, and if those rebuked by Christ had been listening to their consciences, they would have known better than to sacrifice right choices in the name of legalism. God's word says that once we are in Christ we are no longer in need of the letter of the law, for the laws are our tutor to Christ, and once in Christ, we are free from the letter of the law, and free to walk after what has been written on our hearts, for God will speak directly to our hearts. The letter of the law is for the law breakers, so they may know right from wrong. We no longer need that, for we have the Holy Spirit speaking directly to us right from wrong. If we walk in obedience to the Holy Spirit, assuming you're in Christ, we are fulfiling the laws of righteousness for we sit under God's counsel. Even though we are not to invalidate the laws, Christ is grace from the letter of the law. You can't reinstate the letter of the law in Christ, just the righteousness of the laws. Reinstating the letter of the law is severance from Christ.
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6/18/2009 8:27 pm |
For those who would argue this point, I would simply ask you to explain Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus' OWN WORDS: "DO NOT think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I DID NOT come to destroy, but to FULFILL. For assuredly, I say to YOU, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. ... Read MoreWhoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, AND teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever DOES and TEACHES them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven".  GodIsMovinfByHisSpirit
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6/18/2009 6:06 pm |
I don't think you're gonna solve this apparent controversy with your post, Terrie! The balance between being free from the Law, and to be obedient to the Law, can only be understood by the indwelling of the Spirit. Rationally, one could say that to please God you should follow His literally given rules, while spiritually one could say that He will lead one to His "essence" of the rules and therefore to automatically follow them. The approach is different! While first one HAD TO follow specific and detailed statutes, ordinances and commandments to get the blessing of God, now with the blessing and work of Jesus, the Holy Spirit's new nature in man, would LEAD to TUNE IN in the ESSENCE of God's LAW (the source behind ALL statutes and commandments), and therefore to FULFILL WHATEVER law that had been given! The LAW comes from WITHIN, because God Himself has written HIS NATURE in the believer! Consequently, the newborn ACCEPTS all of God's ever given "words" to His people, and can then "reshape" them, accordingly to one's own circumstances, culture and time in history. Not to comprehend this, it's the sign that the Holy Spirit is NOT properly indwelling, and the results are precisely to take the scriptures out of context, give them one's own interpretation and FORCE people to believe in humans' interpretations. The REST in the Lord for the Christian, IS NOT in keeping a SPECIFIC DAY, like the 7th day, and there are other verses that can be added to your 4th commandment's verses. (Fx: The Jews came together on THAT day, that's why Jesus and Paul preached to them on that specific day!) The whole teaching about JUSTIFYING ONE'S SINS in the name of the Lord, is a move of the Antichrist to confuse the minds of the weak! When you walk with the LORD, you don't sin! He is LORD = He has the last word in your actions, and to Him one responds and will have to respond! Normally the Antichrist doesn't explain what SIN is. (Being in the Spirit one KNOWS what sin is!) Don't let "man" pretend to judge the children of God! If The LORD doesn't accuse you, then you're FREE! AMEN! The power LIES now in His NEW LIFE, NOT in the following of the OLD written law to GET INTO THIS NEW LIFE! ALL LAW that pleases God will be AUTOMATICALLY FOLLOWED by the communion with the Lord, the Father and the Holy Spirit! Be aware of false teachers! Dan: 7:25: And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws 2Thes:2:4: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Mk: 7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/18/2009 5:21 pm |
I don't think you're gonna solve this apparent controversy with your post, Terrie! The balance between being free from the Law, and to be obedient to the Law, can only be understood by the indwelling of the Spirit. Rationally, one could say that to please God you should follow His literally given rules, while spiritually one could say that He will lead one to His "essence" of the rules and therefore to automatically follow them. The approach is different! While first one HAD TO follow specific and detailed statutes, ordinances and commandments to get the blessing of God, now with the blessing and work of Jesus, the Holy Spirit's new nature in man, would LEAD to TUNE IN in the ESSENCE of God's LAW (the source behind ALL statutes and commandments), and therefore to FULFILL WHATEVER law that had been given! The LAW comes from WITHIN, because God Himself has written HIS NATURE in the believer! Consequently, the newborn ACCEPTS all of God's ever given "words" to His people, and can then "reshape" them, accordingly to one's own circumstances, culture and time in history. Not to comprehend this, it's the sign that the Holy Spirit is NOT properly indwelling, and the results are precisely to take the scriptures out of context, give them one's own interpretation and FORCE people to believe in humans' interpretations. The REST in the Lord for the Christian, IS NOT in keeping a SPECIFIC DAY, like the 7th day, and there are other verses that can be added to your 4th commandment's verses. (Fx: The Jews came together on THAT day, that's why Jesus and Paul preached to them on that specific day!) The whole teaching about JUSTIFYING ONE'S SINS in the name of the Lord, is a move of the Antichrist to confuse the minds of the weak! When you walk with the LORD, you don't sin! He is LORD = He has the last word in your actions, and to Him one responds and will have to respond! Normally the Antichrist doesn't explain what SIN is. (Being in the Spirit one KNOWS what sin is!) Don't let "man" pretend to judge the children of God! If The LORD doesn't accuse you, then you're FREE! AMEN! The power LIES now in His NEW LIFE, NOT in the following of the OLD written law to GET INTO THIS NEW LIFE! ALL LAW that pleases God will be AUTOMATICALLY FOLLOWED by the communion with the Lord, the Father and the Holy Spirit! Be aware of false teachers! GB!
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6/18/2009 5:09 pm |
Amen! Christ did not come to abolish the Law! False prophets and false teachers, with the spirit of Antichrist- that Lawless One- have come to teach it was abolished however. This same dark spirit roams this place in the minds of the deceived, who despise G-d's Law, and teach others it is acceptable to transgress under the banner of Grace. Thankfully, so does the Truth and the Light, here roam, and is evidenced by the words of the humble, gentle, and obedient children! GBY!
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6/18/2009 4:26 pm |
Jesus came to establish the law.
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6/18/2009 3:28 pm |
Excellent post, once again! He came to fulfill the law! Walking, and praising and trusting my Lord for the rest of my life
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6/18/2009 12:46 pm |
Romans 14 verse 5 One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. 3 Each must be fully convinced in his own mind.
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6/18/2009 11:33 am |
I don't think you're gonna solve this apparent controversy with your post, Terrie! The balance between being free from the Law, and to be obedient to the Law, can only be understood by the indwelling of the Spirit. Rationally, one could say that to please God you should follow His literally given rules, while spiritually one could say that He will lead one to His "essence" of the rules and therefore to automatically follow them. The approach is different! While first one HAD TO follow specific and detailed statutes, ordinances and commandments to get the blessing of God, now with the blessing and work of Jesus, the Holy Spirit's new nature in man, would LEAD to TUNE IN in the ESSENCE of God's LAW (the source behind ALL statutes and commandments), and therefore to FULFILL WHATEVER law that had been given! The LAW comes from WITHIN, because God Himself has written HIS NATURE in the believer! Consequently, the newborn ACCEPTS all of God's ever given "words" to His people, and can then "reshape" them, accordingly to one's own circumstances, culture and time in history. Not to comprehend this, it's the sign that the Holy Spirit is NOT properly indwelling, and the results are precisely to take the scriptures out of context, give them one's own interpretation and FORCE people to believe in humans' interpretations. The REST in the Lord for the Christian, IS NOT in keeping a SPECIFIC DAY, like the 7th day, and there are other verses that can be added to your 4th commandment's verses. (Fx: The Jews came together on THAT day, that's why Jesus and Paul preached to them on that specific day!) The whole teaching about JUSTIFYING ONE'S SINS in the name of the Lord, is a move of the Antichrist to confuse the minds of the weak! When you walk with the LORD, you don't sin! He is LORD = He has the last word in your actions, and to Him one responds and will have to respond! Normally the Antichrist doesn't explain what SIN is. (Being in the Spirit one KNOWS what sin is!) Don't let "man" pretend to judge the children of God! If The LORD doesn't accuse you, then you're FREE! AMEN! The power LIES now in His NEW LIFE, NOT in the following of the OLD written law to GET INTO THIS NEW LIFE! ALL LAW that pleases God will be AUTOMATICALLY FOLLOWED by the communion with the Lord, the Father and the Holy Spirit! Be aware of false teachers!
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6/18/2009 9:45 am |
AMEN
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6/18/2009 8:01 am |
Terri, The problem is that we wont even BE in Heaven if we dont keep the Law of God. At least thats what my Bible says. See verse 14 and 15 below... And if we do keep the commandments it shows that we "perceive" the love of God and that it truly had its effect upon us that it was designed to have See verse 16 below: 1 John 3: 14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. 15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 16: Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. And thats why this is so serious of an issue and why Im always harping on it all the time. Most of Christianity today believes the Law was abolished at the Cross. The thing is that much of the Christian World today sees keeping the Law as some sort of an OPTIONAL thing... like as in "I have Christian Liberty now" but in this they make a mistake. A HUGE mistake. The entire New Covenant is based upon the fact of us allowing God to write His Laws upon our hearts. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/18/2009 7:06 am |
Maybe it's just me but my feelings and thoughts are that the Law was/is the foundation for the New Covenant. And if you love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind - WHY would you ever want to steal or covet or murder or commit adultery etc etc. It just seems to me you can't have one without the other - they go hand in hand. It's just that simple to me and anyone that tries to make it more complicated has a nut or two loose in my opinion - for what that is worth. I think it pays to stay on a childlike level in most of this stuff - you know like >>> "Except you come as a little child, you will in no way enter in." (Luke 18:17) And "Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand it's own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of wrong. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices when the truth wins out. Love never gives up., never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance." (1 Cor 13:4-7 - NLT) Blessings Terrie - good post!! How can we NOT praise Him - Marilyn
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6/18/2009 5:42 am |
Ooops I need to re-phrase:  If you love the Lord thy God you will keep all His commandments. Love and Hugs   Lord, keep one hand on my shoulder and one hand over my mouth!
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6/18/2009 5:39 am |
Amen my friend! Something else........ Matthew 22 vs 36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. If you love the Lord you will keep commandments 1-3 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. This one covers 6-10. If you truly love your neighbor, you will not steal from him, covet his stuff nor will you murder him. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Thank you for my friend for this wonderful post. Love and Hugs Love and Hugs Lord, keep one hand on my shoulder and one hand over my mouth!
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6/18/2009 5:19 am |
VERY GOOD, Terri. Just like if we FULFILL our Marriage Vows, that doesnt mean we no longer keep them! Thats why Jesus said, "Do NOT think I have come to DESTROY the Law but to fulfill it" Now how silly it would sound if He had said, "Do NOT think I have come to DESTROY the Law but to destroy it" He fulfilled it and the Bible actually says that BECAUSE He fulfilled it, we ourselves then have no excuse for not keeping it ourselves. NOTICE a few things here when you read the bible passage below.. 1. God sent Jesus IN THE FLESH ...meaning He became fully human, subject to temptation, etc... yet overcame all sin... verse 3 2. That the law of God could be fulfilled IN US (there's that word FULFILLED)... this will be done by those who walk IN THE SPIRIT and who do NOT walk in the flesh... fulfilling fleshy sinful lusts, etc... verse 4 3. If we remain carnally minded, which means we are NOT subject to the Law, then we will be IN DEATH, not life... verses 5-7 4. IF the Gospel Message does NOT have this effect upon us then 'WE ARE NONE OF HIS'. In other words, we dont really belong to God AT ALL. Romans 8: 3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. I agree! I guess BOTH of us will be considered great in the Kingdom of Heaven! How can these scriptures be misconstrued? They're pretty plain to me, although anyone who does not want to obey can and will find a way to interpret Jesus' words to suit their own personal agenda. Thank you for your comment! God bless you! NOTHING that happens, happens for NOTHING I Am Truly Blessed By Each Of You Here At BC, Yes, Even You!!! What's In YOUR Past? Hey BigChurch! We're Back From Our Honeymoon! Does God REALLY Promise Not To Allow More Than We Can Bear? New Members at BigChurch, WATCH OUT!!!
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6/18/2009 5:01 am |
VERY GOOD, Terri. Just like if we FULFILL our Marriage Vows, that doesnt mean we no longer keep them! Thats why Jesus said, "Do NOT think I have come to DESTROY the Law but to fulfill it" Now how silly it would sound if He had said, "Do NOT think I have come to DESTROY the Law but to destroy it" He fulfilled it and the Bible actually says that BECAUSE He fulfilled it, we ourselves then have no excuse for not keeping it ourselves. NOTICE a few things here when you read the bible passage below.. 1. God sent Jesus IN THE FLESH ...meaning He became fully human, subject to temptation, etc... yet overcame all sin... verse 3 2. That the law of God could be fulfilled IN US (there's that word FULFILLED)... this will be done by those who walk IN THE SPIRIT and who do NOT walk in the flesh... fulfilling fleshy sinful lusts, etc... verse 4 3. If we remain carnally minded, which means we are NOT subject to the Law, then we will be IN DEATH, not life... verses 5-7 4. IF the Gospel Message does NOT have this effect upon us then 'WE ARE NONE OF HIS'. In other words, we dont really belong to God AT ALL. Romans 8: 3: For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5: For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Ti:2:14: Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity
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6/18/2009 4:56 am |
For those who would argue this point, I would simply ask you to explain Matthew 5:17-19, Jesus' OWN WORDS: "DO NOT think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I DID NOT come to destroy, but to FULFILL. For assuredly, I say to YOU, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. ... Read MoreWhoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, AND teaches men so, shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever DOES and TEACHES them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven". NOTHING that happens, happens for NOTHING I Am Truly Blessed By Each Of You Here At BC, Yes, Even You!!! What's In YOUR Past? Hey BigChurch! We're Back From Our Honeymoon! Does God REALLY Promise Not To Allow More Than We Can Bear? New Members at BigChurch, WATCH OUT!!!
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