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10/22/2007 10:48 am |
I voted other,and the other is; Yes I speak in tongues(with no controversial statement following and no defense necessary). GBY stevie "This is the year of the favor of our God" "Your time has come to shine. All your dreams are on their way. See how they shine."(Bridge over troubled waters)
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10/22/2007 2:42 pm |
I speak in tongues everyday. I do it in worship and prayer, in church and on my own. Reference 1 Corinthians Chapter 14 We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/22/2007 3:10 pm |
Why?
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10/22/2007 11:35 pm |
I know this question was not directed at me specifically, but "gratification" is really the wrong word. I Cor.14: 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 1 Corinthians 14:15: 15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. One can pray with the spirit (which is praying in tongues) or with the understanding. If one is speaking in tongues with a message for the assembly, then yes someone should interpret. But if it is part of ones personal worship and prayer, then interpretation is not required. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/23/2007 12:05 am |
The context of the chapter is that Paul is giving instruction to the Corinthian church in using the gifts of tongues and prophecy in an orderly fashion. This is why he says prophecy is superior in the context of the assembly, since it is UNDERSTOOD by all present. Paul also says: "39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." In answer to another question you posed about speaking in tongues, NO it doesn't take you over and make you unable to control your speaking. Just as he says about prophecy:"32The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. 33For God is not a God of disorder but of peace." This is also true of speaking in tongues. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/23/2007 12:48 am |
I am a strong believer in Gods gifts, But it is up to that person and how that person walks with the Lord. God can show us and teach up many things. We as christian have to have the faith and believe what we say we do and God will show his spirt to us and his gifts. I do speak in tongues and i see things, and as we grow he shows us more. We never get to old to learn from God and we will never know to much. God bless you my friend. and God be with you always Love in Christ Debora
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10/23/2007 1:30 am |
No,"The spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets". Is your objective here to chastise the wrong use of tongues in the assembly,or to discredit the gift it`s self.? GBY "This is the year of the favor of our God" "Your time has come to shine. All your dreams are on their way. See how they shine."(Bridge over troubled waters)
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It's interesting to see that 2 people, one being a chaplain, cannot be bothered to answer the intelligent questions posed which is clearly being done to give us an understanding of the concept of speaking in tongues...I am sad to see this. I wonder how Jesus would respond to their responses? Come on guys I am trying to learn something here too...
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10/23/2007 9:15 am |
It's interesting to see that 2 people, one being a chaplain, cannot be bothered to answer the intelligent questions posed which is clearly being done to give us an understanding of the concept of speaking in tongues...I am sad to see this. I wonder how Jesus would respond to their responses? Come on guys I am trying to learn something here too... May I draw your attention to brother godlycooks comment with regard to brother Aslans comment; "For what purpose do you speak in tongues..........in other words is it for self gratification ?" Sister,usually before I enter in to a debate I question the motives for it,brother godlycook has stated that he is doing a study on it,I am part of our brothers network so I know our brother is well versed on the scriptures,and although he may be doing a fresh study on it,our dear brother is no "Freshman",he is a scholar and a gentleman,and I have the utmost respect for him. I find it interesting that you say I refuse to answer the intelligent question!.As I have answered on this post both questions that have been put to me,did I miss something,or is it the fact that I may not happen to agree that you find offensive? Any way,I apologize if I have offended you or my dear brother,but the fact that my answers do not meet your approval,I can do nothing about. In all sincerity,God Bless you. stevie "This is the year of the favor of our God" "Your time has come to shine. All your dreams are on their way. See how they shine."(Bridge over troubled waters)
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10/23/2007 6:54 pm |
speaking in tongues,,,for some reason it reminds me of some cheesey movie about demon possesion were the victim is speaking in tongues foreign language, i mean, demonic language) and her body convolsing while her head turns violently from side to side, yikes!. No i have never spoken in tongues, just in english and spanish,,,are these considered tongues (languages)?. I have read my new vine's bible dictionary to the original greek and hebrew words and what i get from it is that tongues equals languages. Life is an adventure.
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10/23/2007 11:45 pm |
That depends on your reason for choosing it. If you are intending to show that those who speak in tongues are having a purely emotional experience you might be correct in some cases, but certainly not all. I suspect this is connected to your contention in our previous discussion on this subject on Cathaholics blog where you claimed: quoting godlycook: "Perhaps you have forgotten...........but I have explained this once or twice before. I use to be a member of a holiness church. I've done, heard and seen it all. From the casting out of demons; to speaking in tongues ( and everything in between ). I experienced this first hand, I was a part of it all; but God opened my eyes, and exposed it as fake. Thats right, I said fake. Do I believe in speaking in tongues, for today ? Yes, but not what is being done in the Pentecostal churches. When given the time, to look at scripture, and compare it; to what is passed off for tongues today; Pentecostals become upset ( and want to actually hurt me ); because I expose their folly. What would make a supposed Holy Ghost filled person; want to slap me; because I exposed a lie ? Gosh Steve, I can come up with several reasons you might inspire a person to want you slap you that have nothing to do with this subject. Nonetheless your agenda behind your questions is obvious to me be perhaps others aren't up to date on the discussion to date. The first distortion that your statement about "supposed Holy Ghost filled people" is that they should be any different than every other human being? I'm sure you were warm and friendly when you denounced them as "fakers" and their overly emotional response to that was not in any way provoked by your attitude, right? As I said in our previous discussion, of course their have been fakers and charlatains throughout the history of the church. There have always been unscrupulous men who have taken advantage of the ignorant and gullible among us. This does not in any way prove that all who claim to have had the experiences that I and others have shared here in answer to your poll are also fakers. Nor does it mean that we are sharing some common deception or delusion. It may just mean that some people have had an authentic experience in the Spirit that you have not. I will not judge your experience since we have never met. I would hope that you would extend me the same courtesy. The scripture is clearly on the side of those who believe that the Holy Spirit is active and that the gifts are alive and well in our time. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/24/2007 12:02 am |
Sorry, I thought I had explained more fully. When the purpose of speaking in tongues is to bring a message in the assembly, there is an interpreter. This can be the same person who spoke in tongues or another. When the purpose is to pray in the Spirit or worship, then no interpretation is necessary, since it is not intended to bring a message in the assembly. Since I can pray with the spirit or the understanding whether I'm in the assembly or not, it works both ways. Were you ever going to answer the question I put to you in the other blog: "Have you ever encountered genuine manifestations of the gifts in question? From what you have said so far, one gets the impression that you don't believe any of them were. Why don't you define what you mean by prophecy, and we'll see if it matches mine. I for one don't believe that any word of prophecy will contradict the written Word of God. But that is sort of a moot point if no one is actually hearing directly from God, right? Your position in the other blog was that ALL charismatics and pentecostals were faking speaking in tongues. Is that still your position here? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/24/2007 12:03 am |
Yes I speak in tongues, and have for decades. Is is always used properly in the church? No. Should it be interpreted when used in worship service? yes and no. 1, Yes, always when used to give a message to the congregation. 2, No if you are speaking in tongues quietly enough that other's don't hear you, or if it is a type of prayer session where praying in the spirit is in order and acceptable. What is does. I have an issue with using the term,'self gratification,' when describing speaking in tongues. Men often degrade things and that term has been degraded and is associated with matters not part of this discussion. Here is a list with Scriptures that speaking in tonges does. 1, We speak unto God. 1st Corth. 14:2; 2, We speak devine secrets. 1st Corth 14:2; 3, Our spirit is edified. 1st Corth 14:4; 4, It is to be part of our private Prayer lives 1st Corth. 14: 4-5; 5, We are praying in the spirit. 1st Corth. 14:14-15; 6, We are singing in the spirit. 1st Corth. 14:15; 7, We bless with the spirit. 1st Corth. 14:16; 8, We give thanks well. 1st Corth. 14:17: 9, It is a sign to unbelievers. 1st Corth 14:22; 10, It confirms to us that we are children of God. Rom. 8:16; 11, It helps with our infirmity. Rom. 8:26; 12, It helps us pray beyond our understanding. Rom 8:26; 13, It makes intercession for us spiritually. Rom. 8:26-27; 14. It strengthens us. Eph. 3:16; Isaiah 66:2b; But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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10/24/2007 12:06 am |
It's interesting to see that 2 people, one being a chaplain, cannot be bothered to answer the intelligent questions posed which is clearly being done to give us an understanding of the concept of speaking in tongues...I am sad to see this. I wonder how Jesus would respond to their responses? Come on guys I am trying to learn something here too... We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/24/2007 12:48 pm |
I don't understand why do people speak in tongues in some of the churches in this country, is it necesary when everybody speaks english?, i mean, speaking in a language that nobody else in the congregation knows or understands makes no sense at all, specially since God speaks all languages, why would he wants us to speak a "secret language", it's unnecesary in my opinion, back in biblical days it was a very diffeent setting, are we going to try to walk on water becouse Jesus did, it's biblical, it's in the bible, and does that mean that we can too? I don't think so. I think it's ridiculous, i even have heard of a "secret prayer language" spoken by some pastors (chuck smith, founder of calvary costa mesa) and my thoughts are this----------What makes you so special?.  (why am i laughing? must be the holy ghost in me)Life is an adventure.
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10/24/2007 1:06 pm |
ACTS 19:6-8, speaks of Paul laying hands on about 12 men, Holy Spirit cames upon them and they speak with tongues and prophesied, then they go into the synagogue and speak bodly for 3 months,,I think that i would probaly speak in a language that i know nothing about in order to reach out to others who speak it fluently, if the Holy Ghost wanted it that way,,,or i could bring an electronic translator, with plenty of fresh batteries, BUT, to speak gibrish is demonic. I found Vines easier to read  I was thinking of the movie "Constantine" with keanu Reaves, plenty of demonic possesions in it too! lol Life is an adventure.
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As you already know, I do not speak in tongues. Please don't ask me why? lol (¯`•♥•´¯) ¤`•.♥.•´ ¤ (¯`•♥•´¯)
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10/24/2007 1:25 pm |
I don't understand why do people speak in tongues in some of the churches in this country, is it necesary when everybody speaks english?, i mean, speaking in a language that nobody else in the congregation knows or understands makes no sense at all, specially since God speaks all languages, why would he wants us to speak a "secret language", it's unnecesary in my opinion, back in biblical days it was a very diffeent setting, are we going to try to walk on water becouse Jesus did, it's biblical, it's in the bible, and does that mean that we can too? I don't think so. I think it's ridiculous, i even have heard of a "secret prayer language" spoken by some pastors (chuck smith, founder of calvary costa mesa) and my thoughts are this----------What makes you so special?. (why am i laughing? must be the holy ghost in me)recieve everyhting that God has for you don't you? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/24/2007 7:32 pm |
Without claiming that my experience is definitive, there does appear to be a progression to at least the gifts of tongues and prophecy. The normal progression within charismatic circles is that one will speak in tongues first, then begin to interpret and then to prophesy. Paul says in I Cor. 14 that prophecy is superior to tongues because it is more edifying to the whole church. As to your question:"Can a Christian be a true 100% complete totally Spirit filled follower of Christ if they do not speak in tongues?" Of course they can, since it is the Giver of the gifts that we serve and not the gifts themselves. Using the gift of tongues in our personal prayer life is not a requirement, but it is a big help to many. It's about communicating directly with God through the Holy Spirit. Since we can talk to God in English as well as our prayer language it is not an absolute necessity. However I do believe that it gives our prayer an added depth of intimacy and faith. Speaking in tongues is an act of faith and trust that we are in fact uttering mysteries from the Spirit of God within us. Not only that, it builds us up in the confidence we need to move into interpretation of tongues and prophecy. Prophecy is hearing and speaking the voice of God. It requires that we believe that God can and will speak directly to us as individuals and as an assembly. We are told to judge what prophets say since any utterance will be checked against what we already know of God's intent and character through His Word. My question is this, if you believe that tongues is a genuine manifestation of the Spirit, shouldn't we all desire to speak? Paul was happy that he did it more than anyone he knew, shouldn't we all desire to emmulate his example? He exhorted the Corinthians in chapter 14 of his first letter to them: "39Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. 40But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way." If the best way to move into prophecy is to put aside our aversion to tongues and step out in faith, shouldn't we do that? I'm not saying one MUST speak in tongues first to prophesy, but that is the progression common in charismatic churches.It is also the progression outlined in scripture. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/24/2007 7:37 pm |
I believe that they are all in force. That does not necesarliy mean that they are all common. But I do believe that as our Lord's return draws closer, we will see them more and more. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/25/2007 7:15 am |
Oh, please. "Interesting.....very interesting." Give me a break. How about the fact that you are nearly impossible to get a straight answer out of? Quit trying to be clever. Quit pretending to be superior to any other human being. Oh...I get it, you are so DEEPLY spiritual that you have never provoked another human being to anger. Your demeanor when you condemn people as frauds does not have any negative emotional content. Interesting...very interesting indeed. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/25/2007 7:32 am |
So the answer is NO. You have not encountered any genuine manifestations, right? Is that because you believe they were all frauds or because you are not able to tell the difference between the real and the fake? Well, one of the gifts is the discerning of spirits, it it not? Do you claim that you have this gift? Romans 8:16 16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Hebrews 2:4 4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? John 10:27: 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: Well some people hear the voice of God,others have their ears plugged by unbelief. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/25/2007 11:57 am |
Rather than ridicule people who are having an experience that you have not, why not earnestly ask God to show you how sharing that experience might deepen your realtionship with Him. You do want to recieve everyhting that God has for you don't you? I better wear a helmet, just in case i run into a splap-happy lion. Life is an adventure.
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10/25/2007 12:52 pm |
I think i hear something,,,,,(listening,,,,naw, it was just the wind. I better wear a helmet, just in case i run into a splap-happy lion. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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It is often assumed that all those who "speak in tongues," whether publicly or privately, are either "Charismatic" or "Pentecostal." But this is not the case. I did a blog post "Do you speak in tongues" I learned allot. Since that post I feel like I learned about all I can and I would like to share what I have learned since last year like I didn't beat the subject to death last year and state my views for consideration. 1. "The cessationist position argues that there are no miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit today. Gifts such as prophecy, tongues, and healing were confined to the first century, and were used at the time the apostles were establishing the churches and the New Testament was not yet complete." This was the view that I knew from childhood and my blog did reflect this in my replies. It is interesting to reflect back after a year. Let me continue now. 2. "Pentecostal refers to any denomination or group that traces its historical origin back to the Pentecostal revival that began in the United States in 1901, and that holds the following doctrines: (1) All the gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the New Testament are intended for today; (2) baptism in the Holy Spirit is an empowering experience subsequent to conversion and should be sought by Christians today; and (3) when baptism in the Holy Spirit occurs, people will speak in tongues as a ‘sign’ that they have received this experience." 3. "Charismatic, on the other hand, refers to any groups (or people) that trace their historical origin to the charismatic renewal movement of the 1960s and 1970s and that seek to practice all the spiritual gifts mentioned in the New Testament (including prophecy, healing, tongues, interpretation, and distinguishing between spirits). Among charismatics there are differing viewpoints on whether baptism in the Holy Spirit is subsequent to conversion and whether speaking in tongues is a sign of baptism in the Spirit." 4. "In the 1980s a third renewal movement arose, a movement called The Third Wave by missions professor C. Peter Wagner at Fuller Seminary (he referred to the Pentecostal renewal as the first wave of the Holy Spirit’s renewing work in the modern church, and the charismatic movement as the second wave). Third Wave people encourage the equipping of all believers to use New Testament spiritual gifts today and say that the proclamation of the gospel should ordinarily be accompanied by "signs, wonders, and miracles," according to the New Testament pattern. They teach, however, that baptism in the Holy Spirit happens to all Christians at conversion and that subsequent experiences are better called "fillings" or "empowerings" with the Holy Spirit. Though they believe the gift of tongues exists today, they do not emphasize it to the extent that Pentecostals and charismatics do." 5. "There is yet another position, held by a vast number of evangelicals who think of themselves as belonging to none of these groups. These people have not been convinced by the cessationist arguments that relegate certain gifts to the first century, but they are not really convinced by the doctrine or practice of those who emphasize such gifts today either. They are open to the possibility of miraculous gifts today, but they are concerned about the possibility of abuses that they have seen in groups that practice these gifts. They do not think speaking in tongues is ruled out by Scripture, but they see many modern examples as not conforming to scriptural guidelines; some also are concerned that it often leads to divisiveness and negative results in churches today. They think churches should emphasize evangelism, Bible study, and faithful obedience as keys to personal and church growth, rather than miraculous gifts. Yet they appreciate some of the benefits that Pentecostal, charismatic, and Third Wave churches have brought to the evangelical world, especially a refreshing contemporary tone in worship and a challenge to renewal in faith and prayer… "the open but cautious position." Personally, when I read each of the five views, I find something compelling in each one. I find myself almost being convinced by the arguments presented for each view. At times, I wish scripture were clearer on these issues. After carefully thinking through, and searching the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that my own understanding lies closest to "Open but Cautious". I post this not to defend my personal position, but rather merely to point out that there are those, like myself, who hold to these different positions and who at the same time consider themselves to be good Christians. I do not personally speak in tongues, either in private or in public. However, my interpretation of Scripture is essentially the same as many who do. I believe the gift of tongues is valid for today. I also believe that the gift of tongues may be legitimately used as a "private prayer language." In my opinion, the only reason I do not have a "private prayer language" is because God, distributes each gift to each one "just as he determines" (1 Cor. 12.11), has not chosen to give me this particular gift. Many blessings and I hope your blog helps many to understand the differences more clearly. Sheri (¯`•♥•´¯) ¤`•.♥.•´ ¤ (¯`•♥•´¯)
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10/25/2007 3:25 pm |
Why is it so hard to understand that the bible CLEARLY says SOME people have this gift, and SOME DONT??? Why arnt we focusing more on prophecy? We are only in SELF edification, hence, selfishness! There isnt even a record of Jesus himself "s.i.t.'s" He prophesied!
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10/25/2007 7:42 pm |
Why is it so hard to understand that the bible CLEARLY says SOME people have this gift, and SOME DONT??? Why arnt we focusing more on prophecy? We are only in SELF edification, hence, selfishness! There isnt even a record of Jesus himself "s.i.t.'s" He prophesied! We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/26/2007 12:54 am |
Thank you for your reply Sir, but there really is no rebuttal against Scripture. Sure one can try if they want. I believe you are the one who in fact has missed Paul's message to the church regarding speaking in tongues. It is not a matter of anything linguistic, or for addressing foreigners. For the most part it is ones own personal prayer language between them and God in order to pray in the spirit, which transcends understanding. Praying in the spirit is clearly superior to praying with understanding. It is more direct and brings more powerful results. It's use in the churches worship service really is a secondary function, and this is where the misusage and misunderstanding has occured. The unbelievers referred to in 1st Cor. 14:22; is NOT specificly unbelieving Jews. There is no mention of Jews. The unbelievers can certainly INCLUDE Jews, but Paul's ministry was specificly to the Gentiles, therefore it would stand to reason that the majority of the unbelievers, and unlearned would have been Gentiles. Either way, tongues is a sign to the unbelieving because speaking in tongues is something that is physically impossible to do. Only a person who is born again and filled with holy spirit can speak in tongues. Now that is not to say one must speak in tongues to be born again. NO.. NO.. A person can be born again and never speak in tongues, BUT only people who are born again can speak in tongues. Speaking in tongues in a church service is absolute proof to unbelievers that there is something spiritual about the speaker. Then the tongues MUST be interpreted so that everyone in the body can be edified. There is much dispute as to WHO interprets the message given in tongues. Some claim that a second person does the interpreting, and others believe the first speaker should do the interpreting. I personally fall with the latter group. I believe a second person giving the so called interpretation is in fact giving a word of prophsey, not interpretation. Again, tongues with interpretation is a show for unbelievers. For those who are born again, prophsey serves the same purpose. It is not neccessary to convince other believers that one is born again. Any doubt can be addressed through discerning of spirits, because not only does that identify demons, but it also can identify angels, and other people who are born again. People make this a bigger deal then it really is. It is a gift. If you want it, you can have it. If you don't want it, that's fine too. It doesn't make you any less of a Christian. It just that without it, you won't get the benefits you would get with it. No big deal. On the other hand it's pretty hard to say it's obsolete, or doesn't exist when there are thousands upon thousands of born again Christians who can and do speak in tongues. It's part of the same package that allows God to speak to us by revelation, to do miricles, and or faith healings, and to identify and cast out demons. If speaking in tongues wasn't for real, neither would any of the other gifts be here, but since the other gifts are still present, then so is speaking in tongues. All the gifts of the spirit are here until that which is perfect is come, and what would that be? Jesus Christ coming to rapture his church of coarse. When the Lord returns for us, we won't need any of the gifts of the spirit, because we will then have HIS personal presence. Byron Isaiah 66:2b; But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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Dear sister we are long enough in the tooth to know where this is going.And if you study the nature of the questions,then they appear to be sightly loaded in opposition to the gift. May I draw your attention to brother godlycooks comment with regard to brother Aslans comment; "For what purpose do you speak in tongues..........in other words is it for self gratification ?" Sister,usually before I enter in to a debate I question the motives for it,brother godlycook has stated that he is doing a study on it,I am part of our brothers network so I know our brother is well versed on the scriptures,and although he may be doing a fresh study on it,our dear brother is no "Freshman",he is a scholar and a gentleman,and I have the utmost respect for him. I find it interesting that you say I refuse to answer the intelligent question!.As I have answered on this post both questions that have been put to me,did I miss something,or is it the fact that I may not happen to agree that you find offensive? Any way,I apologize if I have offended you or my dear brother,but the fact that my answers do not meet your approval,I can do nothing about. In all sincerity,God Bless you. stevie Many thanks to the other people that are sharing their views and experiences, I am finding this very enlightening. Thank you Godlycook for initiating the blog. God bless you all.
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10/26/2007 7:19 am |
You were implying that just because I could think of reasons why someone would want to slap you that was having the same anger that they were having toward you. This is not the case. I have had the same sort of emails that you have had concerning the explanation of scripture. Your refusal to accept the truth of the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in my life and others here in no way diminishes that truth. It merely points out to those reading that there are some areas of scripture where your knowledge is not complete. You are trying to explain or argue away something is real in the lives of millions of believers worldwide. You try to discredit those who speak in tongues by saying that certain cults do the same thing. This is a nice indirect way of calling them cultists, no? Your position on this topic is clear and concise when you decide to be direct, rather than playing socratic games. The wording of the poll at the beginning was a clear indication of your bias on the topic. You failed to include a choice for people who have spoken in tongues more than once. You will notice that everyone who wanted to say "Yes" had to choose "Other". You have constructed a plausible interpretation for your position that is quite simply wrong. Have you been fighting against the "error" of others so long that you have forgotten that you are, despite good intention, as falible as anyone else. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/26/2007 8:26 am |
You are correct in as much as Paul was talking about which was better in the assembly. Paul's attitude is that speaking in tongues edifies the individual only, except where the person then interprets. He exhorts the Corinthian church not to forbid speaking in tongues because he saw it as a necessary step toward the better expressions of interpreted tongues and prophecy. I doubt that there were any prophets then (or now) who hadn't first spoken in tongues and then interpreted. Call it "selfish" if you like but that essentially misses the point of Pauls direction to the Corinthians. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/26/2007 1:51 pm |
Is this the statement where I said the opposite(?) "I'm not saying one MUST speak in tongues first to prophesy, but that is the progression common in charismatic churches.It is also the progression outlined in scripture." Since there is no definitive answer to that question, I do not insist that one MUST speak in tongues prior to moving in the gift of prophecy. But there are indications that Paul saw a progression from one to the next:"13For this reason anyone who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret what he says." 1 Cor 14:13 This indicates that there was a problem with people speaking in toungues (I don't mind typing it out) in the assembly without an interpretation. in verse 27 he says: " 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two–or at the most three–should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." The Corintians were so enthusiastic about speaking in tongues and prophecy that Paul had to send a word of correction to establish an orderly way of doing business. more later. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/26/2007 5:55 pm |
As for prophecy, I have heard both types, but predominantly the instruction/edification type. Paul instructs the Corinthians to judge the prophecies. This has always meant in my church that it would need to be confirmed both by the more mature in the prophetic gifts as well as be confirmed by scripture. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/27/2007 9:06 am |
Forgive me if you think this might be belaboring the point, since you favor the minimalist school of explanation. Do you also claim that those of us here who also claim to have a genuine experience are also faking it? You neglected to answer that question. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/27/2007 11:07 pm |
I thought you were doing a research project on speaking in tongues. If this is so, then it would behoove you to try to understand those beliefs instead of simply trying to tear them down. I am willing to explain what I understand and believe, but I'm not lookng for a debate on this subject. If that is what you are wanting to do, I can assure you that if I put the time and effort into it, you would lose, and you would lose very badly. Not because I'm so smart, but because speaking in tongues is totally Scripturally breathed by God, and God is a lot smarter then you. I really don't have the time to molly coddle you through how to read the Bible without privately interpreting it. In 1st Corth. 14; Paul did go to great lengths about speaking to be understood. This was because the church he was addressing was not using the gifts correctly, so Paul had to set them in order. They had placed tongues above all else and were misusing it badly. Your remark about tongues being least important because of your claim it is listed last in 1st Corth. 12 is a really cheap shot. By that logic, the last child born in a family is the least important because he or she was born last. Obviously you are not the last born of your sibblings to feel that way. Besides speaking in tongues is NOT last in the section you mentioned. It is second to last. Interpretation of tongues is last. If you are going to make commetaries on the Word of God, at least respect the almighty with the dignity to have your information correct. I can't speak for the others who support speaking in tongues, but I never claimed it was so important as to place more emphsis on it then anything else. I do it myself, it is included in my prayer life. I never told anyone else that they MUST do it, but I have said that any born again Christian MAY do it. Paul must of thought it was important because he spoke in tongues himself, and was thankful that he spoke in tongues more then everybody else. (IN his private prayer life) Finally at the end of chapter 14; he promotes speaking in tongues one more time adding to it some pretty powerful statements. 1st Corth. 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order. If you consider yourself a spiritual man then by the Bible's own instructions, Paul's support of speaking in tongues are the commandments of the Lord. But if after all that God has given us on the matter, if you want to stay stupid, then you can stay stupid. Now the balls in your court, and you will have to do better then that. Isaiah 66:2b; But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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10/28/2007 7:12 am |
What you say is true. It is also easy to claim that you have the gift of discerning spirits, isn't it? Your distinction between DIALEKTOS AND GLOSSALALIA is valid but let me suggest a slightly different interpretation to your observation: It is most appropriate that you mention your observation of the little children, since my experience is that many christians who speak in tongues do indeed sound as if they are speaking baby talk in another language. Any language needs to be developed. Now, many believers who begin development of the prophetic gifts do not continue as Paul exhorted, to also interpret and prophesy. When people begin to interpret and prophesy, the need for tongues does not just go away. As Paul says:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. I have been used in intercessory prayer a number of times and prayed both in the Spirit and the understanding. Often the sound of the tongue changes to what might another or different language. If someone is not using their gift in prayer, the simple structure of the sounds may indicate that they have never moved beyond the "baby talk" phase of their growth in that gift. Just something to consider. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/28/2007 12:27 pm |
Of couarse not! Not everyone has this gift! the bible is VERY clear on that, and even says that we should desire prophesy more, for in wanting the other, you are in self edification, wheich is a form of selfishness! Why is it that the church finds this so hard to understand? Jesus himself didnt even speak in tounges!
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10/28/2007 4:55 pm |
Hisglory77.......you ended your comment with these words: " But if after all that God has given us on the matter, if you want to stay stupid, then you can stay stupid. " What was that, some sort of superior tongue ? Of coarse not. Just a requote of 1st Cor. 14:38; If you want to stay stupid, especially when it's all right there for the reading, then that is up to you. I wasn't wrong about tongues being last in the list of gifts as recorded in 1 Cor 12:28. Do you know the difference between an overview and a ranking order? Yes I do. But you left a different impression a few replies back. Quoting you, "From that statement, Paul is teaching us that speaking in tongues; isn't as important as you ( and others ) make it to be. In fact in the list of the gifts found in 1 Cor. 12: 27-28; tongues is in last place ( at the bottom of the list ), in relation to it's importance." Okay, I was thinking of the listing in verses 8-10 of 1 Cor. 12; so I'll offer an appology on your remark of being last. But now you say, "All of the gifts are important to the Body of Christ, as Paul explains, but we are to seek those gifts which edify, rather than exalt one or two particular gifts, as if they were special." I don't know if you have now changed your stance, but I couldn't agree more, and that is exactly what the Word says. 1st Cor. 14:12; So it is with you. Since you are eager to have spiritual gifts, try to excel in gifts that build up the church. Speaking in tongues WITHinterpretation does build up the church. It is exactly equal to prophesey, just as verse 5 in the same chapter tells us. Why is it I never hear anyone boast about having the gift of helps? The subject matter here is speaking in tongues, and that is the matter I'm addressing, but this is YOUR blog, you can change the subject if you want. You want to talk about healing? I've seen healing, I've been healed, and I've done healing. (as God's vessel of coarse) Miricles? Yup, been there and done that too. Faith? Goes almost without saying. Word of Knowledge? gimme a break, of coarse. Word of Wisdom? Not quite as much, but that one's increasing for me. Discerning of spirits? When needed. I don't go looking for demons. Gift ministries? I'm a teacher myself, although I've noticed some potentual for possibly a prophet as well. Governments? Well I'll admitt I don't excel in everything. Helps? Possibly. Could you define that one for me? I sure won't say that one is any more important then any other. I may find some gifts more apealling to me in my walk, and others less pertainant to me, but that is not a statement of importance. Again, I'm not looking for a debate. If you want to know the whats, and hows of what giftings I operate in, I'd be happy to explain how it works for me. It may or may not be the same as it is for someone else, but none of that makes it wrong to have or use. Isaiah 66:2b; But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.
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10/28/2007 10:31 pm |
Sorry godlycook, but here your knowledge begins to show the weakness of no real practical personal experience. Observation does not produce the same knowledge as first hand experience. It is the use of the gift that is being developed. As the speaker becomes more experienced in praying in the Spirit, the language becomes more complex and varied than just the simple repetition of sounds. I'm sorry that my imperfect explanation is not completely satisfying to your skepticism. I will not deny the validity of yout claim to have the gift of discerning of spirits even though you are unable to provide me with conclusive proof. I can only offer you with my best understanding of my very real experience over the last 36 years.It really doesn't matter that you don't believe. You cannot deny that the scripture clearly supports the presence and power of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. From what you have said, the foundation of your position is your own experience, and not just your interpretation of scripture. If you can have a valid experience, then so can everyone else here, and the only guide we have to rightly divide one from the other is what the scripture says. There is no scriptural basis to deny that the gifts of the Spirit can operate today just as they did in Paul's time. There is no scriptural basis to contend that the five fold ministry can and does still operate (including that of the Apostle) just as they did in Paul's time. Am I required to provide you with proof because you don't agree with me? Not at all. We develop whatever gifts God has given us by moving deeper into our faith in Him. As I said earlier, we serve the Giver of the gifts, not the gifts themselves. We trust in the love and grace of God, not upon whether we speak in tongues or not. All of us must be careful not to miss the leading of the Lord by allowing unbelief to find a foothold that we rationalize as "healthy skepticsim." Selah. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/29/2007 8:33 am |
My sometimes cynical eye sees mockery here. If you don't accept Kymm's assertion, just say so. There is no need for juvenile ridicule. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/29/2007 10:04 am |
Here is a subject we can both agree on, Steve. I can't wait to see your follow-up post on the subject.
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10/30/2007 10:19 am |
I checked out the person named above and listened and was impressed by some of his reasoning. He did however make a statement that concerned me. He indicated that one of the reasons that he doubted that anyone who was having the tongues experience today was genuine was because there so many women doing it. I got the impression that this study was not really an open hearted exploration of the subject, but rather a defense of a position already decided upon. People who come from denominations that do not practice speaking in tongues are good at mounting arguments against it. Those who do have no need to explain why they do, except when attacked for it. Dr.Bell expounds quite well on the scriptures, but his knowledge, like godlycook's is theoretical, not experiential. That makes all the difference. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/30/2007 8:21 pm |
Fair enough. I'm neutral, having nothing other than the statement to go by. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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Just checking in to see if there are any new revelations. I will look forward to your next article on PROPER USE OF SPEAKING IN TONGUES. (¯`•♥•´¯) ¤`•.♥.•´ ¤ (¯`•♥•´¯)
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10/31/2007 12:37 am |
Now that analogy is just plain silly. For one it obscures the truth of what I said but doesn't refute it. The fact is you have never spoken in tongues yourself, right? Otherwise you would have used that experience in your attempt to discredit those of us who do. So, I'm not sure if it is meant to call us victims of a fate you escaped or whether you're calling us a pit of vipers. Either way the rhetorical flourish is over the top. Facts have no meaning without interpretation. If we go only from what we read in the scripture then we see that the gifts of the Spirit were alive and well in the Corinthian church. Paul wrote to them to help correct some errors in the management of those gifts in the assembly. But if you conclude that the manifestations you encountered are false because they do not fit your own idea of what it should sound like, you are now not using the scripture as your only guide. You are allowing your own prejudice about it color your understanding of what you see and hear. You believe that God showed you that they were fake. How did He do this? Did you hear the audible voice of God declare this? No, that's right you were the one who said that God doesn't speak directly to people now that the Bible is complete. The next possibility is that you had a witness in your spirit that this was the case. You had studied the relevant scriptures and decided that these people did not meet all of the requirements that you concluded were there for these "tongues" to be real "tongues". Is that it? How would you describe a witness in your spirit to someone who had never had one, would you describe it as a tingly feeling, or the conviction deep down in your heart that this was the truth? Our knowledge is incomplete about just what it sounded like when the Corinthian believers spoke in tongues in the assembly, all we know is that Paul gave them some practical instructions like "don't everybody talk at once" and "if you don't have an interpretation stay silent." But nowhere are we given a guide to what tongues sound like every time that they are used. Dr. Bell correctly identified the variety of ways that tongues were used in the Bible. (You might want to study that bit.) But his conclusions about whether anybody has genuinely manifested these gifts in recent days cannot be based on any real knowledge of what the real thing sounds like, can it? Treasury agents are trained to spot counterfeit currency by studying the real thing in depth. Too bad neither of you have that kind of expertise. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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10/31/2007 8:54 am |
inamorato4u, It appears that what is disturbing to you is the emotionalism that you are seeing. I attended a Pentecostal service once, which was quite different than the charismatic ones I was accustomed to. There was one point where everyone prayed aloud in english all at once which I found unsettling. It was distracting. I felt the same way when they all spoke in tongues, because I was outside my comfort zone. The expression of worship at that church was different than what I was accustomed to but no less valid. But I have been in services where people prayed in tongues aloud all at once that did not disturb or distract me at all. It was understood that each of us was speaking privately to God but united in our purpose of intercession. Everything was done in the orderly fashion described by Paul, if a word of prophecy came, the speaker would move up to the platform and wait for the leadership to acknowledge them. I found that whenever my focus would drift away from God himself, I would begin to be distracted by what I heard around me. The emotionalism that some display is not necessary. Now I understand that the moving of the Holy Spirit can have a deep and profound impact on people, and the immature might lack the fruit of self control. But any display of emotion that draws attention to itself must be seen as originating in the flesh. But not all emotional display is inapproptiate. Sometimes it is a question of the culture in which it is found. The exuberant worship of african believers could be unsettling for those not raised in that culture. The differences between denominations are not limited to the doctrinal positions that each adopts, but also the cultural differences that go with those doctrines. Not everything that makes us uncomfortable is a sign of something amiss spiritually, even though this may sometimes in fact be the case. Every gift must be developed. It is developed through the exercise of one's faith and trust in God. When we speak of being "gifted" in non spiritual things like dance or math, we mean that one has an inherant disposition or talent for that activity. But we also understand that without training, the gifted pereson will never fully realize that gift. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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I don't speak in tongues and I do believe that if it's edifying the body of the church with translation by another, than it is a true gift but not for all of us to have. To many people think that if they speak in tongues that they are blessed, not true if they are not edifying the church, they are simply edifying themselves. 1st Corinthians 12: 7-11 Born Again Christians only need to chew, It's those left behind that have to swallow it.
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11/1/2007 8:38 am |
Don't have time for a long reply at the moment. But I will offer an observation about your debating style. If you look back over many of your replies to me you will notice that vey often you will quote back to me one small portion of what I have said and ignore the rest. I told you why I thought the analogy was silly. You just gave me another analogy rather than actually address the substance of my post. I have been honest enough to give straight answers to your questions. I would think intellectual integrity would require you to do the same. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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11/1/2007 2:35 pm |
Perhaps what you think is me, "not paying attention" is simply me not being able to read your mind. This is why I ask questions that you don't bother to answer most of the time. We are both intelligent, articulate people, but we have different beliefs that are based on the same scriptures. You think your understanding of the scriptures invalidates my experience, I believe otherwise. You are wrong when you say that I have tried to use my experience to prove my experience. I have pointed out how my experience is in line with what the scripture says. You refuse to accept that. Pauls letter of correction to the Corinthian church shows us only one aspect of what was going on concerning the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit, the part that needed correction. You say that there is no need for speaking in tongues unless there is someone in the assembly that recognizes and understands the language being spoken, as in the book of Acts. Correct? But in 1 Corinthians 14:18 Paul says "18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." There are several things we learn here. 1. Paul speaks in tongues a lot. 2. He is doing this outside of the church 3. when He speaks in tongues, outside the church he does not always Interpret, otherwise he wouldn't call it "unintelligible" in context. In verse 28 in giving guidelines about the use of tongues in the assembly he says."28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and God." This indicates that tongues without interpretation is directed at God, not the assembly. In that case, no interpretation is needed, but the speaker needs to rightly discerne that it is private between himself and God, and that it was not meant for the assembly. in verse 2 he says,"2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit." This matches very well with my experience in private as well as in the assembly, as I have described in an earlier post. If I "cry foul" it is because you insist upon a narrower definition of the use of tongues than Paul does. If I have to choose, I'll pick Paul-sorry. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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11/3/2007 6:48 pm |
So I guess by the standard you set out here, you are not "called" since I have no idea what this post means. You must be confused. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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