Blog : THE RECONCILING OF ROM. 2:13 AND ROM. 3:20

THE RECONCILING OF ROM. 2:13 AND ROM. 3:20

8/11/2009 11:46 pm

Last Read:
9/8/2009 9:37 pm

Ok....Now I'm going to show the law peddlers how to reconcile Rom. 2:13 with Rom. 3:20.

But before I do, I need to explain why its so important to follow the progression of any particular subject in the Bible. There are two types or methods used, when it comes to preaching and teaching; the Word of God. One is called " Devotional preaching " and the second is called " Expository preaching ". A devotional sermon doesn't take much time to prepare. You simply pick a verse ( sometimes more ), and with practically no serious study of the text, bring a devotional message. Devotional preachers jump from subject to subject ( and verse to verse ) maybe being in the Book of Revelation one Sunday and in the Book of Ruth the next. Every Sunday you hear a different sermon; from a different book of the Bible. The problem with this kind of teaching ( or preaching ) is, that its easy to take any verse ( or passage ) out of context. I'm not saying that devotional preaching is necessarily bad, its just not the best.

On the other hand " Expository preaching " takes much more preparation time. An expository preacher generally teaches through an entire book of the Bible; starting with the first verse, in the first chapter of the book; until he gets to the end of that book. Every sermon is a continuation of the previous weeks sermon. Most expository preachers, will only advance one to three verses per week. It takes much more time to prepare ( and study ) for a sermon of this nature. I once attended a church where the pastor took eight years to get through the Book of Genesis. And believe me when he got to the end, you knew what the Book of Genesis was all about.

That's the way I study the Bible......I read entirely through one book at a time. I start with the first chapter, and slowly work my way through; which means sometimes, I have to back up and re-read a text until I fully understand it. This method of studying the Bible, helps me to keep subjects in their context. I don't jump around, reading a verse here and a verse over there. I also stay away from those, read through the entire Bible in a year promotions, because when it comes to Bible study, you don't need speed, you need understanding.

The reason people like Byron, Claudia, longing couldn't figure out how to reconcile Rom. 2:13 with Rom. 3:20 is because they only look for verses that they think support their particular theological bent. I use this method ( quite effectively I might add ), of reconciling Scripture; on such groups as Jehovah's Witnesses. Whenever I do, they begin to see contradictions, but its not Scripture that is contradicting itself......its their doctrines ( their beliefs ) that are contradicting the Bible.

Now to explain how you reconcile Rom, 2:13 with Rom. 3:20. Remember, how I stated the importance of following the progression of thought in scripture ( because the Bible is a book of progressive mention ) ? If you always snatch verses from their surrounding context, all you will ever end up doing is creating your own Bible. A Bible that you can twist and shape into anything you want. I'm going to show, the proper method of following the progression of thought in the Book of Romans. Its not hard.

The first three chapters of the Book of Romans must be studied as a unit. In the first chapter of Romans, Paul describes the unrighteousness of the Gentiles. In the second chapter of Romans Paul describes the unrighteousness of the Jews. In the third chapter of Romans ( just in case anybody thought Paul overlooked them ) Paul describes the unrighteousness of ALL mankind. We want to focus on the second and third chapters because this is where the verses to be reconciled reside.

In the second chapter Paul declares that the Jews are inexcusable, because the very things that they looked down on ( and accuse ) the Gentiles of doing, they themselves were guilty of doing the same things. He warns the Jews that they will not escape being judged for practicing such things ( v.3 ). As we read on following the progression of Paul's thought, leading up to verse 13 talks of the hardness of their ( the Jews ) hearts by which they were storing up wrath, for themselves on the day of God's judgment.

Eternal life, Paul says, is for those who by patient continuance do good; but those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, tribulation, anguish and wrath to every soul......to the Jew first and then the Greek. Now here's where it starts to get interesting.

12"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law

13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

If you've noticed, Paul isn't exactly congratulating the Jews for their good behavior up to this point, and verse 13 isn't a description of their obedience to the law; but a declaration of what God requires from His people, if they hope to be made right with Him. We know this because as we read on ( following through to verse 17. Paul says:

17" Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God,

18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,

19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law.

21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself ? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal ?

22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery ? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples ?

23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law ?

24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written. "

Do these verses lead you to believe that verse 13 is saying that the Jews were keeping the law ( or that anyone can ) ? They shouldn't, because starting with verse 21; Paul clearly described the true nature of the Jews, and it wasn't one of keeping the law. Sure they heard the law, and boasted about their law keeping ability; but they weren't really doers of the law; which God requires before He will justify anyone for keeping the law.

Once you get into the third chapter of Romans, starting with verse 9, Paul describes the Jews and Gentiles, as both being under sin. He then goes on to explain that there is none good, none who understand, none who seek God.

Now when you come to Romans 3:20, you don't have to do all kinds of back flips; by pulling other verses out of context, in a vain attempt to prove we can keep ( or should try to keep ) the law. When you follow the natural progression of the first, second and third chapters of Romans; you can easily come to the proper understanding of the two texts. Its done without doing any violence to either text, or making one verse look as though it contradicts the other ( except to those who believe they can keep the law ). Romans 3:20 isn't in the least at odds with Romans 2:13., when you understand that Rom. 2:13 never even hinted; at the Jews ability to keep the law.

This is how you reconcile, what some consider irreconcilable.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/12/2009 7:44 am

You might want to read this first CHALLENGE TO ALL TEACHERS OF THE LAW .....MAKE ME LEAVE BC FOREVER just so you can get the gist of what's going on here. I was sleepy when I wrote this so its a little ruff.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

archangel1954

406 posts

8/12/2009 8:35 am

godlycook

You and I both know that I could show dozens and dozens of scriptures backing up the truth of what Paul taught about the law not justifying and that is by faith alone.

Faith in what ? The free GIFT of God.

Some boast of their bible knowledge and being able to quote from memory this book or that book.

But for all the knowledge that people have, they refuse to come to the knowledge of the truth.

For all of their scripture knowledge ( or should I say memorisation ), they can't seem to get and retain to memory, ( or should I say TRUST ) those scriptures that contain eternal life and those which make them accepted in the beloved.

You know, there seems to be a false accusation going around that we teach that sin is ok as long as you believe in grace.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

And some think that we should cast aside these differences between law for justification and grace through faith for justification as though it is a side issue and something that takes away from what is really important.

If the differences between these thing were so minor to what is really important in their minds, which seems to be a go along with anyone about anything no matter how contrary to sound doctrine it may be, for the sake of so called unity, then why would Jesus Christ reveal Himself to Paul and show him a mystery, something that was hidden BUT NOW revealed, and have him write these things down for us in his thirteen letters or epistles ?

You know, we have reached a place in this modern world and it called self esteem, which is totally against the scripture that tells us we are to esteem OTHERS higher than our selves.

We are told we are to concentrate on the good behavior in our children and praise it.
That sounds good and can be good.

But the bible teaches us, a saved people, that our good works are our REASONABLE service.

Doing good is to be the NORM for a christian.

And like the false idea that we have today in society, like what they want us to believe and practice today, we arn't supposed to correct bad behaviour or bad actions or bad attitudes,or make children accountable for these things, but rather ignore or distract from the bad ideas or actions and build on praise for what they do do right.

This attitude is also prevailing in the church world today.

And we are seeing in our society today,the results of this.

We have a youth that have grown to be thugs and lawless at levels that stagger the imagination.

We have children that have become lazy and undiciplined to the level of if they are asked to do the littlest task, they look at you with the attitude of you're some kind of monster.

Anyway, my point is that we as a society and as a church today have cast aside disipline and correction for the sake of not offending.

But the truth is, that without correction and accountability there can be no truth.

Those who put aside a desire for popularity for the sake of proclaiming the gospel clearly and truthfully, are the ones who love you enough to tell you the truth that will lead you to the salvation of your soul.

Someone who doesn't love you will praise you for having a few scriptures right when your doctrine is all wrong.

Proverb:27:6: Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

A broken clock is right twice every 24 hours.

Do we say, man that is a good clock. It tells the truth twice a day.

I think I'll just keep that clock on the wall it is just so right.

Of course not. We will take that clock down and correct whats wrong with it and if it can't be fixed then we replace it.

The problem with the world today and in particular, the church world today is that they HATE correction and like the rebellious children today, if you correct them they will treat you like it is you that has the problem.

And how they love to quote scriptures about law but they miss that which all rebellious children refuse to do.

And that is repent.

Change their way of thinking to God's way of thinking.

Bringing their thoughts unto submission to God's word.

Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

And it's really that simple.

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

longing4more

3734 posts

8/12/2009 10:33 am

(you're so in love with yourself)

godlycook

4214 posts

8/12/2009 11:09 am

Quoting longing4more:

(you're so in love with yourself)

That was a nice comeback, for someone who said; I couldn't do it ( or that it couldn't be done ), i.e. reconcile the two verses. What's the matter babe........ jealous ? I love the Lord, and I Love His WORD.......but I hate it; when people like you twist it.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/12/2009 11:24 am

Exactly Arch. I see it here all the time. Like I brought up that someone here doesn't believe Jesus is God, because someone else was saying that their theology was sound. Their answer was that they wanted to focus on what this person did have right and not what they had wrong. This is unbelievable. They don't know who Jesus is, so don't know Jesus, but let's not try and address that ever, but let them die not knowing Jesus. Wow, that's love man. I'm feeling the love. NOT. What I'm seeing is alot of placating any belief for the sake of having friends here. I was glad you put up the scripture Prov. 27:6. Humanism, Universalism, Liberalism, Legalism, and every other ism has free rein here. I don't have the friends I had before I stood for what I know is true. Very few ppl talk to me anymore. It's fine tho. I knew that would happen. My real friends are still talking to me. Gbu and RN

Godly thanks for the answer. I've learned more about how to study the bible correctly, like it was meant to be studied. BTW I have been to the two different types of churches and I have always liked the expository teachers. I got no meat from the others. Just usualy some "feel good" message that left me hungry. So I prayed and God led me to three good expository preachers so far over the yrs. I always did want to understand doctrine correctly. I knew it has one meaning. In that statement, I mean not different meanings for different ppl like so many believe here. I know scripture can have more than one thing it is saying, but they will not contradict. Gbu brother

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

longing4more

3734 posts

8/12/2009 11:36 am

Quoting godlycook:

I believe those you accuse had properly reconciled the two verses as well, just not to your liking. I wouldn't have responded at all to this post except you included me in your list of those that couldn't. I have my own faith walk which honors both scriptures.

I would ask for another dance, but you step on toes.

longing4more

3734 posts

8/12/2009 12:01 pm

GC, what's twisted to one is straight to another. We should be okay as long as we keep our own paths straight and our conscience clear before God.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/12/2009 12:29 pm

Quoting longing4more:

You believe you reconciled the two passages correctly.......you can't even make up your mind; what the two passages are teaching. You're the one with that said " They take us in two different directions " ( which they don't ), then you said they can't be reconciled ( which they can ); and now you want to take credit for getting it right ? The reason I step on your toes, is because you have a hard time keeping in step.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/12/2009 12:37 pm

Quoting longing4more:

GC, what's twisted to one is straight to another. We should be okay as long as we keep our own paths straight and our conscience clear before God.

When it comes to law and grace......there is only one path, not two. You want to have your own path ( a path different from Jesus' path ), His path is narrow and straight. You don't make it straight, but you can make yours crooked. Get on the straight path, rather than trying to make your crooked path seem straight.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

archangel1954

406 posts

8/12/2009 1:11 pm

You know, recently I have seen a post that said these differences between believing on Christ and trusting in grace through faith in the finished work of the cross, and the doctrine of salvation by works should be put aside and we should move on.

Move on to what?

This person never said what we are supposed to move on to.

Perhaps to sitting around holding hands and singing Kum-buy-yah in agreement of something that we have no idea of?

If you build a house on the sand and not on a firm foundation, then how can that house stand?

And public opinion of everyone going along to get along is exactly that. Shifting sands.

Come one, come all to the feel good church of what's happening now.

Come and enjoy a wonderful talent and entertainment packed evening with the church of the ignorant brethren.

We promise you will be blessed by the evenings program. You will be blessed and feel great. About what we can't really say, because what you believe and what someone else believes, really isn't important.

Just as long as we all worship together this generic god of one size fits all, thats all that matters.

I actually just read a post that said , I don't care what you believe as long as you believe!

Believe what? Doesn't matter I guess! according to this poster !

Gee isn't that what I was doing BEFORE I got saved?

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/12/2009 1:18 pm

Quoting godlycook:

Canon: This word is derived from a Hebrew and Greek word denoting a reed or cane. Hence it means something straight, or something to keep straight; and hence also a rule, or something ruled or measured. It came to be applied to the Scriptures, to denote that they contained the authoritative rule of faith and practice, the standard of doctrine and duty.

Yes, many take Scripture which is ortho-dox (straight-praise) and once in their hands twist it to become bent or crooked.

Moses had a straight staff. Jesus died on two intersecting straight beams of wood representing the Old and New Covenant as one.

But you must know, Godlycook, that those who do twist the Scriptures evidence that they are not really saved and do not know the Lord. The first thing a saved person experiences is God's love. The second is HIS TRUTH about their sin and who is He that justifies.

1 John 5:10-11..."He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son."

Those who twist Scripture are in effect calling God a liar.

Salvation is of the LORD

archangel1954

406 posts

8/12/2009 1:20 pm

And Hi Robin and thanks and hope you are maintainin girl. This is for you:

Proverb:27:6: Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

longing4more

3734 posts

8/12/2009 2:48 pm

Quoting godlycook:

I said they're reconciled in Christ.

longing4more

3734 posts

8/12/2009 3:02 pm

Quoting ladylightwalker:

Robin, what's unbelievable is that you judged wrongly what this man believed in the first place, and then kept poking at him while he was tottering between staying and leaving. Your beliefs aren't that important to him I'm sure. What matters is that he's right with God. Your righteousness is nothing before God. Even if you are technically right, it's all washed away in the graces of Christ, so how do you serve God by driving people from the faith with your comprehensions?

Unbelievable is you, who immediately after I invited you to my friend network, immediately went to attacking me on the blogs. I didn't compromise my beliefs for anyone. I disageed with you, but I still gave you respect. I have a little bit higher standards for friendship than that.

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/12/2009 7:23 pm

Longing I immediately came to your defense on your own post. I have never attacked you. Only stood for truth. I wasn't refering to you. We've never even emailed each other. And I wasn't poking at Steve (soaring). What I did actualy got him mad enough to stay lol, and maybe he will study his dusty bible that he claims to know what's in it, and realise who Jesus is. If a person doesn't know Jesus is God he doesn't have a belief in Jesus. You don't even get that. You think he is "right with God"?, and I am "technicaly" right? You are a Universalist. It doesn't matter what a person believes, all will be saved. That's not true. And I have never been mean to soaring at all. I have only asked him to back his statement that Jesus is not God but just the son of God. He said it. He can back it up if he's going to say it. Sorry I don't live up to your "friend" criteria, lol, but I don't really care. I would rather tell you the truth because I care.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/12/2009 7:26 pm

And Longing I gave you the same respect you gave me. I just disagreed with you on Steve's blog. You call that disrespect. You disagreed with me too.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

soaringwithchris

11830 posts

8/12/2009 7:35 pm

Quoting ladylightwalker:

"This is Unbelievable" and Thank you, Longing. YOU, Robin are the one who is unbelievable! I NO longer admire your "Gumption."

Okay, REPEAT after me. "God is the Father, He made a child named Jesus thru the Immaculate Conception(Mary did not feel a thing.)

Now take as long as you want responding. I may be back, I may Not. That is the beauty of ....

P.S. Longing, I am sorry I jumped on you, YOU are "All Right!"

Christians are like Timex watches. We take a lickin', but We keep on tickin'! Steve

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/12/2009 8:08 pm

Arch ty for the scripture

I'm sad, but ok.

Soaring, I knew you'd pop up lol, just answering Longing here, but maybe this is a good place for you to discuss your belief about Jesus. Steve's blog tho and we are getting off his topic. I bet he doesn't mind tho if you want to elaborate more. That was a bit brief, and pls state your belief with scriptual backing pls. And don't get personal about my seperation again pls. I wouldn't talk about your ralationship or private life in the way you did mine (on Jesus4me's post). If you can do all that then come on back.

I do care is all.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

godlycook

4214 posts

8/12/2009 9:08 pm

Quoting longing4more:

I said they're reconciled in Christ.

I know what you said......and it's still the wrong answer. What is that suppose to mean anyway ? What " they're " are you talking about ? You can't take something in two different directions, and expect it to end up reconciled. Did I just step on your toe again ?

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/12/2009 9:24 pm

Quoting archangel1954:

Earlier today, I heard a woman call a " Christian " radio station, and say she was looking for a church, where she could feel comfortable joining.......one that wouldn't judged her.

That's the same way most bloggers here feel. They don't want to be told; when they believe something that's wrong ( just let them be, so they can believe whatever they want ) Didn't paul say something about that ?

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/12/2009 9:30 pm

Those who don't believe Jesus is God, and those that do believe He is God, but believe in keeping the law for salvaion (or keeping of salvation), are all great friends here. That's very telling of what is important to them. It's not "who" Jesus is that's their main focus or importance.

The first thing for me, and always was, is WHO is this Jesus? Is he just a man, or is He also God? And I was shown in scripture by the Holy Spirit who Jesus is (the only one who can teach you who Jesus is...Peter wasn't told by man who Jesus is). He is son of man and Son of God. The God/man. He accepted worship. Only God does hat. Not even angels. He forgave sins. Only God did that. He was called God by the Father in the 1st ch of Hebrews. And by Thomas who doubted. Just a few out of many other proofs for you soaring...and anyone else who will listen.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

longing4more

3734 posts

8/12/2009 9:42 pm

Quoting godlycook:

Christ is able to do in us what we can't do. No you didn't step on my toes again. I just walked off the dance floor.

archangel1954

406 posts

8/13/2009 12:20 am

Quoting ladylightwalker:

Amen Robin .

Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh:1:2: The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh:1:3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh:1:14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Contrary to what the feel good church of what's happenin now thinks, it's very important what we believe.

You can show these filks scripture after scripture about the truth of Christ being God and they will never believe the words on the page. As it is with all the scripture they wrestle and twist.

But even heretics have a purpose according to the word. Do you know what it is ?

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

archangel1954

406 posts

8/13/2009 4:26 am

Quoting godlycook:

Ro:10:3: For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Among others.

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 6:41 am

Quoting jeremiah1five:

Jeremiah1Five you said:

" Those who twist Scripture are in effect calling God a liar. "

This is so true, when Jesus says He gives us eternal life, and we will never perish; then some false teacher comes alone and says that's not true; " Salvation is conditional " they have in fact make Him a liar. When I declare that Jesus saves and gives us eternal life, then I'm looked at as a liar, because I'm teaching a dangerous doctrine. I'm not the one teaching a dangerous doctrine they are. Go figure.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/13/2009 7:03 am

Quoting ladylightwalker:

Ladylightwalker...

There is a reason why she is as she is and does not understand true Biblical doctrine going to the Christian faith. She's not saved. She has religion, and from a study of Biblical doctrine going to the question of who is a Biblical Christian, she fails to fit the model.

She's a goat in sheep's clothing.

Do not be deceived.

Isaiah 5:20.

Salvation is of the LORD

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/13/2009 8:14 am

Setting all the false doctrinal positions aside that most of you adhere to, and not bothering to even comment upon it...

--Just WHERE do you get off trying to JUDGE whether or not someone else is SAVED?

You are NOT GOD. And you have NO RIGHT telling anybody here that someone isnt SAVED.

This in ITSELF demonstrates your serious lack of Bible knowledge.

God judges someone on their RELATIONSHIP they have with Him and according to the light and knowledge that they have had and have been CONVICTED OF.

You have NO IDEA of what is in someone else's heart toward God.

For all of the FALSE LIES you all have told about the Seventh Day Adventist Church here, claiming that we think we are THE ONLY ONES SAVED, among just ONE of the lies... its such an ironic thing because its YOU LOT here who are continually calling people 'HERETICS' and claiming they are NOT SAVED just because they dont adhere to YOUR IDEAS of what the Bible teaches.

EMPHASIS ON 'YOUR IDEAS OF'.

Do you carry around a portable stake with you so you can light a fire under it and burn your latest 'HERETIC' or what?

I personally have NO RESPECT for any of you because of the fact that you cant even manage to do PROPER UNBIASED RESEARCH on what the SDA Church teaches and believes. Not to even mention your OWN seriously lacking grasp on Bible Truth.

So dont be claiming that Longing4More or ANYONE ELSE here in this Christian Forum isnt SAVED, because YOU have NOT been appointed that office.

...thats God's perogative, and HIS ALONE.

If you cannot even understand THAT then you already have a SERIOUS problem to start with.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/13/2009 9:14 am

Ladylightwalker,

YOU have posted a multitude of falsehoods about the Seventh Day Adventist Church, including saying that we claim WE are 'Israel'. That is a blatant LIE.

Anyone can go to google and type in
david asscherick discover prophecy seminar

...scroll down and click "Who is Israel" and WATCH one of the most famous SDA Pastors TELL YOU who the Seventh Day Adventist Church teaches is ISRAEL.

And this is just ONE of the LIES you have posted.

You go acting as if you were some sort of an 'expert' on what we believe and teach and you havent a clue about it.

Then you people go accusing others of 'not being saved'.

The hypocrisy really stinks.

Now as I said before in "Godly" cooks previous post, I dont intend on argueing back and forth about doctrine here with you, one reason is that its like trying to converse with people who are dead set on just hanging on to their darling ideas and refusing to look at what the Scriptures actually say; secondly because you all are determined to try to make the SDA Church out to be the offscouring of the earth, for no legitimate reason, and nobody is going to stop you. And the only reason you do it is simply because our doctrines show yours to be unbiblical so you've got to resort to pumping out the lies about us on a regular basis.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/13/2009 9:15 am

uh oh, I'd better be careful, they might run to BC and tell them that Im 'abusing' them.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 10:06 am

Quoting MissClaudiaGirl:

I see you're back......I thought you were leaving this awful place ( again ). If you bothered to read the explanation of how to reconcile Rom. 2:13 with Rom. 3:20; you still wouldn't be running your mouth. Just can't stay away can you ?

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 10:11 am

I just removed the voting bar......because Claudia returned and voted against everybody whose right. Now she'll have to say what she agrees with ( without voting secretly ). And she can't vote for herself.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/13/2009 10:26 am

Acts 8:20-23..."But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

One thing certain persons fail to understand is that God has gifted some in the Church to PERCEIVE and to DISCERN the spirit of individuals who claim to know Christ and in reality do not.

My brother, Peter, was so gifted.

When false brethren rise up in the Church throughout our history it is in the purity of God's Church and the Light of the Holy Word of God in true believers and the Presence of His Holy Spirit that awakens those so gifted to discern these persons so that the ministry of God upon His people is not hindered nor prevented.

God know those that are His!

Mark 4:11-12..."And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

John 7:17-18..."If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him."

1 Corinthians 2:12-16..."Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

1 Corinthians 8:3..."But if any man love God, the same is known of him."

2 Timothy 2:14-19..." Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.

And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

Do you think God would allow His Church to be blind in this area?

The answer is a resounding NO!

Salvation is of the LORD

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/13/2009 10:41 am

Claudia I posted that about "replacement theology" after YOU posted how SDA's ARE ISRAEL... You said it. and I haven't said anyone isn't saved. I believe that if a person believes Jesus (that includs who He is ie God/man) and they have faith in Him for eternal life then they are saved. You have to know who Jesus is to have a relationship with Him Ya know the foolich virgins? Jesus said He doesn't know them.

And everything I have posted about cults is for others to read and look up, and judge for themselves. Whay are so upset? I don't come after you upset about what lies you post about the church beong babylon the great.

I will continue to post my blog, and you can do the same.

I mean if you aren't in a cult, then what could anyone say to keep God's chosen from being saved and come out of the "so called" babylon the great church? You get so upset when I post what I know is truth. I don't even care what you post. I rarely look even. I only have contact with you on other ppls posts.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/13/2009 10:43 am

sorry for the typos lol, not gonna redo it. too tired.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 10:54 am

Claudia you said"

" For all of the FALSE LIES you all have told about the Seventh Day Adventist Church here, claiming that we think we are THE ONLY ONES SAVED, among just ONE of the lies... its such an ironic thing because its YOU LOT here who are continually calling people 'HERETICS' and claiming they are NOT SAVED just because they dont adhere to YOUR IDEAS of what the Bible teaches. "

Questions.....Did the Apostle Paul ever expose those who weren't really saved ? And what's going to happen to all of the people, who don't keep the Sabbath ( like the SDA's say ) ?
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/13/2009 11:52 am

I let scripture speak for itself. Just from what I post I'm accused of saying ppl aren't saved, when it's scripture that says it. And I will stand for scripture till the Lord takes me home. For my service to God and the lost.

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/13/2009 12:49 pm

Quoting MissClaudiaGirl:

uh oh, I'd better be careful, they might run to BC and tell them that Im 'abusing' them.

LOL.

Sounds like someone I know...

of.

Salvation is of the LORD

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 1:53 pm

Quoting ladylightwalker:

sorry for the typos lol, not gonna redo it. too tired.

Robin......have you heard anything from 4gvnm ? I hope she's alright.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

archangel1954

406 posts

8/13/2009 2:55 pm

Quoting godlycook:

Robin......have you heard anything from 4gvnm ? I hope she's alright.

I have.

she's in the bathroom getting ready for work. We will be leaving in a short while.

She's doing ok. been filling in at work for some nurses that couldn't make it.

The new job may be temporary . They're experiancing financial problems and it appears that they may be in the VERY near future, be shutting their doors.

I'll tell her you said hi.

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

ladylightwalker

4606 posts

8/13/2009 2:56 pm

Steve you mean Arch's wife fgvnrn? She was working long shifts and Arch is cooking and driving her too I think. She had a post up about it a few days ago. Blessings, R

"There is no pit so deep, that God's love is not deeper still" Corrie Tenboom

longing4more

3734 posts

8/13/2009 3:05 pm

Quoting MissClaudiaGirl:

Hi Claudia. What a perfectly unique name. Glad to see you resurface, and thank you for your defense.

Claudia says: "God judges someone on their RELATIONSHIP they have with Him and according to the light and knowledge that they have had and have been CONVICTED OF."

Claudia says it's about the relationship. That's the righteous walk. Thanks for bringing that forward Claudia. It's a walk of faith with good conscience. The one condition is that we be in Christ, which requirement we are all in agreement with.

Jer says there are people appointed to "perceive and to discern the spirit of individuals who claim to know Christ and in reality do not". Discerning the spirit with which a message is delivered is a gift given by God, if in fact you are truly practicing the gift and not doing it on your own account, but no one has discernment concerning another's salvation. Nowhere is that written, and that is a false statement. God's word rather says the following:

Romans 10: 5. For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.
6. But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: « DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, "WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),
7. or "WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).»
8. But what does it say? « THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, in your mouth and in your heart» -- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

It blows me away that this topic is again laws vs. grace, yet Claudia, Byron and myself, being those that believe in a faithful walk rather than grace only, are the ones actually moving in the spirit of grace.

The "grace only" group (the opposing side), as always, bands together to railroad people who are actually in relationship with God, accusing us of being outside of grace, and in so doing, they themselves evidence their lack of grace towards others. They accuse us of walking legalistically, while they themselves are even creating legalized requirements for grace. Sorry to hear that Jer doesn't pick up on the false spirit behind that.

If our salvation is by grace alone, why can't you extend grace to those that believe in a living relationship which includes a lifestyle pleasing to God? It's living by the letter of the law that severs us from Christ, not a righteous walk. Beyond that, call it what you will, for we are nothing without Christ, either in the laws or free.

Again, Jer defends the spirit of GC, whose entire goal was to create factions amongst the believers, and demanding that he wins regardless of truths presented (which I commented in Donna's post as being something God hates). Again this is the spirit Jer claims to have discernment over as being of man and not of God, and yet he defends GC, so I ask again where's the God given discernment. Jer discerns based on who spoke and not what was spoken. I guess that would be a self-proclaimed gift on Jer's part. Sorry Jer. Your post just isn't legit.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 3:54 pm

Quoting archangel1954:

I have.

Nobody told me you two are married You make a nice couple. Let somebody know next will ya. In the bathroom lol

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/13/2009 4:32 pm

Longing4more...

It amazes me you can read a Scripture passage, read me saying the same thing, and then completely ignore the passage.

YOU SAID: "...but no one has discernment concerning another's salvation. Nowhere is that written, and that is a false statement."

RESPONSE: One more time let's look at Peter's experience...

Acts 8:21-23..."Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter..."

What matter is this? Being saved and baptized in the Spirit with an evidence of speaking in tongues.

Continued: "...for thy heart is not right in the sight of God."

Seems to me Peter saw into his heart by the words that came from his mouth. Didn't Jesus say something about this in Matthew 15:18?

Continued: vs. 22 "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."

Peter discerned the thought of his heart.

Continued: vs. 23 "For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity."

Hmm...everyone all around Simon becoming saved and Peter picks on poor ol' Simon and accuses him of NOT being saved. Still in the bond (slavery) of iniquity? How dare Peter look into a heart by the words of a persons mouth and discern a person STILL in bondage to sin and on their way to hell and eternal separation from God!

My! Who does that Galilean, unskooled, fisherman, think he really is!

How dare he!

I'm just flustered! Why, no one can discern if someone else is saved!

Right,

onging4more?
----------------------------

NOW I know who I am dealing with. I am sorry for you. I can do nothing for you since you believe you are sincerely in a relationship with Christ. Jesus said the ones who have religion and are deceived are THEE most difficult to bring to Christ (think Pharisee). You have an inordinate amount of pride in your heart and your blindness prevents you from coming to the knowledge of the truth through the Word of God.

You are left in the hands of the Living God. Such a terrible thing.

Those who are saved are in His arms.

Big difference!

PS: Please, if you are going to quote me do not leave out words in mid-sentence. You change the meaning of my statements and THIS IS DECEPTIVE!!!

On "Don't You Hate Abusive Bloggers?" You quote me as saying...

"There are some who live in vain worship of God and knowingly deny Him in their words and deeds. There are some who just are not Biblical Christians...And of THIS I accuse them!"

If I may for those reading this...the whole quote is...(On "jesus4me66 - "Accuser of the Brethren" )

jeremiah1five: "There are some who live in vain worship of God and knowingly deny Him in their words and deeds.

There are some who just are not Biblical Christians and have Americanized the whole of the gospel to a man-centered position that is damaging the hearts and minds of unsuspecting believers in those congregations.

And of THIS I accuse them!"

You left out everything in red and completely changed my meaning. That's manipulation and deception, Simon.

Let's quote you, now...

YOU SAID: "He's of the brethren that walk in the freedoms of Christ. I say he's the teacher led by God."

RESPONSE: You get the picture.

Salvation is of the LORD

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 4:43 pm

longing you said:

" It blows me away that this topic is again laws vs. grace, yet Claudia, Byron and myself, being those that believe in a faithful walk rather than grace only, are the ones actually moving in the spirit of grace. "

Why is it that you law peddlers keep misrepresenting ( and twisting ) what we, ( those who defend grace alone ) say ? None of us has said, that living by faith alone, in the finished work of Christ, gives us a license to sin. Your condemnation is deserved !!

"But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)

Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"

Why not say--as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say--"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved. "Rom. 3:5-8

Not one of you is even capable of of explaining the problem you have reconciling Rom. 2:13 and Rom. 3:20. All you can do is say " we did it. What a joke !!

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

longing4more

3734 posts

8/13/2009 6:01 pm

Quoting jeremiah1five:

There is no indication that you are unsaved because your heart is not right before God over a matter. It's something that should be corrected, but it's not evidence of not being saved. It's merely an indication that his heart wasn't in line with God concerning that particular matter. He was also prayed over for forgiveness of his sin, which is also appropriate to all the saints, for we all need forgiveness where we are not of the same mind as Christ.

There is a time when everyone saved of Christ isn't right in a matter. This requires repentance. If this be true, it invalidates your saved by grace only theory, for God requires repentance.

longing4more

3734 posts

8/13/2009 6:24 pm

Jer it seems that you ad libbed on God's word. You added "and on their way to hell and eternal separation from God!" Scriptures never said that. There was merely evidence that the heart wasn't right.

longing4more

3734 posts

8/13/2009 6:33 pm

Quoting godlycook:

GC, you said: "None of us has said, that living by faith alone, in the finished work of Christ, gives us a license to sin."

Well that's basically what we're saying too, so why are you arguing? It's the same. You're merely mincing words. It's finished in Christ.

There is no condemnation deserved on this blog. That's a man disqualifying Christ's graces. You take the seat of God and proclaim damnations on people. Your damnations are an abomination. You invalidate Christ because people choose to live good lives before God, and then you turn around and call it lawkeeping. When it's all said and done, you live the same way. If you're damning others, then you stand damned.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 9:19 pm

Quoting longing4more:

Move your foot.

No, that's not basically what you're saying!! Claudia ( and her cohorts ) keep accusing us ( those who teach grace alone ) of promoting sin ( as if we say, just go on living a vile life ). That's not what we say, but Claudia does say that Salvation is conditional. Ask her what its conditioned on !! You can't agree with Claudia and be a Christian!! Christians don't mix law with grace.......its like trying to mix oil and water ( it ain't gonna happen ). That's also why you, Byron and Claudia couldn't reconcile the two verses in Romans. You keep trying to put a square peg in a round hole......it;ll never fit.

You can't agree with the Apostle Paul, and agree with Claudia ( at the same time ). Just like you can't teach salvation by grace, and add works of the law ( no flesh will ever be just before God via the law ).

You're a dead woman walking.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/13/2009 10:49 pm

Pay attention all of you law peddlers......this is the work which endures to eternal life.

" 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."John 6:27 -29

Do you understand Jesus' answer to the disciples ? Is there any mention of keeping the law in His answer ? Who is the ONE whom God has approved ? Believing in ( or having faith in ) the son is the work God requires that will endure to eternal life. And this food is freely given by the Son, to those who believe.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/13/2009 10:57 pm

Godlycook,

You READ THINGS INTO what I say.

I never ONCE have said we are saved BY OUR WORKS.

We are JUDGED by our works because our works prove whether or not the faith we claim to have is GENUINE.

Rv:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We are saved by the grace of God.

But this SAME GRACE that forgave us, ALSO changes us, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Ti:3:5: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost

SIN is trangression of the Law.

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

STOP MISCONSTRUEING WHAT I SAY AND STOP IGNORING HALF THE BIBLE.

Its as if you just do not have the capability to understand two concepts at the same time.

Jms:2:
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

It appears evident to me that you dont even know the elementary BASICS of Faith and Works, yet you would have people here believe that you are a 'Bible Scholar'.

You dont even know the ABCs.

As I have said, when I get to heaven I will be casting my crown before God and praising Him for His mercy. All I will have done is cooperate with His work in me, out of love and appreciation for Him; which is my reasonable service.

Those who have no respect for the Commandments of God will be outside the city.

Did keeping the Commandments save me? NO.

Will I be saved because I kept the Commandments? NO.

Im saved by grace, through Faith and because of Love... and this Faith leads me to keep His Commandments.

God will inspect my works to see if I have this Faith and Love.

READ THE BIBLE! and not just the parts of it that you want to hear.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/13/2009 11:00 pm

James 2:
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is DEAD?

Id say its YOU who are the Dead Man Walking, and not Longing4More.

You would have us think that all we must do is BELIEVE.

The Devil believes and trembles.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/13/2009 11:01 pm

THE ONLY reason I have even posted here is for the benefit of some who might be confused by you.

I do realize there is no getting through to YOU personally.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/14/2009 1:39 am

THE TEN VIRGINS

I should just add one more thing.

Jesus explained it all really, in the Parable of the Ten Virgins, 5 wise and 5 foolish. They all had the white robes, and lamps, all professing to be Christians with their Bibles, but it was ONLY THEY who had the OIL which is the Holy Spirit IN their lamps, who were allowed in.

This same thing is really illustrated by the Apostle Paul in SEVERAL different ways and places, one of the chief places being in Romans chapter 6 and 8.

If you are not walking in the Spirit, which leads to the doing of the will of God, then Paul clearly said, 'you are none of His'. You can make all the claims you like of 'believing' in the sacrifice of Christ that you want to, but it is THE FRUIT of the Spirit that is the proof of the pudding.

That was why Jesus cursed the FIG TREE, it had no FRUIT. They were not fulfilling the purpose that God had for them, to represent God to the surrounding nations. THUS, the tree was CUT DOWN, the Fig Tree WITHERED. That was the JUDGEMENT OF GOD.

Same thing illustrated in Revelation where it says that God will open the BOOKS and the dead were judged BY THEIR WORKS.

John the Baptist echoed this same sentiment, a Tree bearing no fruit is good for nothing except to be cut down and thrown into the fire.

SAVED BY WORKS? No! Saved by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ and Faith in His Mercy and Power, shown BY our good works? YES!

If the Sacrifice of Christ does not have its effect upon the heart then it was all IN VAIN.

"Having a form of godliness, without the power thereof"... from such, turn away.

Sprinkle a little Holy Water on you and call it 'good'? Outward Sacrament?

I dont think so!

Faith without Works is DEAD. No walking in the Spirit which would lead us to PUT AWAY our former ways.

Jms:1:21: Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, WHICH IS ABLE TO SAVE YOUR SOULS.

...DEAD MAN WALKING? That would be YOU, if you think all one must do is BELIEVE. -James CLEARLY said so.

You see, you are one of those who goes ON AND ON quoting verses about 'we are saved by grace' which is TRUE.

But half the truth becomes A LIE. OF COURSE we are saved by Grace!

archangel1954

406 posts

8/14/2009 4:38 am

Yes we all realise by now that you believe that Christ's work of the cross was a down payment only. The rest is up to you.

You couldn't make it more clearer that you don't believe and trust that the GIFT of GRACE ALONE provided by the cross work of Jesus Christ ALONE is not sufficient ALONE but NEEDS YOUR law keeping and YOUR rigteousness to make salvation complete.

I don't know how many ways you have to say it for people to get it that you don't trust in what Christ did by His crosswork for your salvation ALONE.

I mean you say it over and over and over. But the bottom line is this, you believe you have to add your works to HIS work to be saved.

I mean, what you trust in and believe is clear.

Some people like half n half. I however like God's best. The cream of the crop. My works added to HIS finished work for salvation just isnt the same. It's diluted.

But hey best of luck to ya workin for your salavation.

Let me know how you made out at the end.

Me I think I'll just work OUT the salvation that I presently have.

2Co:4:3 KJV: But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/14/2009 7:31 am

Quoting ladylightwalker:

We are of the same mind toward God and His inexpressible gift.

I stand with brethren who say the same thing as God.

To stand with Scripture is to stand with the Holy One of Israel.

Amen to you, sister.

Continue to walk in the Light God has given you and He will give you more.

Salvation is of the LORD

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/14/2009 8:08 am

Quoting archangel1954:

and just WHAT HAPPENS if you DONT work out the salvation "you already have"?

Oh let me guess,

the answer you predestinationalists always come up with is

"Oh they werent really saved in the first place"

which is that is so then YOU are saying you must work out your salvation or else you wont be in heaven.

Which is it?

MY BIBLE CLEARLY SAYS THE FOLLOWING:

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

oh but wait! "Thats for the Jews" right?

Do you believe the following?

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

OF COURSE you dont.

And stop putting words into my mouth. You are twisting what I said.

It seems you type cant even take someone at what they say youve got to try to twist it all around and make it what they never said.

I never once said one word about "working my way to heaven".

You and Godlycook WANT to make it appear as such, but you both utter falsehoods.

ONCE AGAIN, Eternal Life is CONDITIONAL.
JESUS:
Mark 10:
17: And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18: And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19: Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

JOHN:
1Jn:3:
14: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

How do we know we have passed from death to life?

Tell me.

Does someone who doesnt love his brother end up in heaven?

Tell me.

It doesnt matter HOW you try to weasel your way around it, THE WORD OF GOD STANDS.

And you can call it 'working your way to heaven' all you want. It doesnt make it so.

any liars in heaven? any body who doesnt know Him in heaven? any body who doesnt have the truth in heaven?

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

You would lead people to believe that ALL they must do is 'believe' and THAT is a false doctrine straight from the Pit of HELL.

You and Godlycook are merely teaching the SAME DOCTRINE that the Nicolaitaines taught, that Jesus said He HATES. works dont matter.

longing4more

3734 posts

8/14/2009 10:00 am

Quoting MissClaudiaGirl:

GC throws out volumes of what God says in order to fit his argument. God help GC, for he will be harshly judged for arguing away God's word.

James 2: 13. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.

James 4: 11. Do not speak against one another, brethren. He who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks against the law and judges the law; but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge of it.

12. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy; but who are you who judge your neighbor?

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 10:41 am

Claudia you said:

" You READ THINGS INTO what I say.

I never ONCE have said we are saved BY OUR WORKS.

We are JUDGED by our works because our works prove whether or not the faith we claim to have is GENUINE. "

And you have the nerve to call me confused. I understand exactly what you ( and the SDA's organization ) are saying. You might as well be a Jehovah's Witness, you both believe the same thing when it comes to Salvation......" WORKS ".

You need to pay better attention to your own words, you keep denying what you say, no-one is reading anything into what you teach. This is what you just said:

" We are JUDGED by our works because our works prove whether or not the faith we claim to have is GENUINE. "

That's not correct. True Christians aren't " JUDGED " by their works, and that's why you say " Salvation is conditional ", which shows you believe ( the same as JW's ) in a salvation by works. For the Christian " WORKS " are the result of GRACE, and prove a genuine FAITH.

Christians don't do good, out of fear, of being judged if they don't. Christians do good because its in their nature, to do good. Unlike you ( and those who think like you ) who perform works out of desperation, hoping that God will recognize them and reward you.

Your argument isn't consistent for, if we are not " SAVED BY OUR WORKS " ( of the law ) as you say; then we can't be " JUDGED BY OUR WORKS " ( of the law ). You speak with a forked tongue ( like most serpents do ).

This is the reason you couldn't reconcile Rom. 2:13 with Rom. 3:20; because you are double-minded, half of your brain is stuck on keeping the law; which confuses the other side of your brain, into believing works = grace.

READ THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF THAT SDA GARBAGE YOU CLING TO. IF YOU PUT GARBAGE IN, YOU CAN ONLY EXPECT TO GET GARBAGE OUT.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 10:50 am

Claudia........ ONCE AGAIN ETERNAL LIFE IS A GIFT, WHICH THE SON FREELY GIVES. ONLY A LAW WORKS ORIENTED INDIVIDUAL, SUCH AS YOURSELF WOULD BELIEVE SUCH A STUPID THING..... AS " ETERNAL LIFE BEING CONDITIONAL ".

THE WORK THAT GOD REQUIRES IS BELIEVING....AND YOU DON"T BELIEVE.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 11:06 am

Quoting longing4more:

Move your foot again.........I wonder why you don't call Claudia out on " conditional eternal life ", but you'll call others out for " arguing away God's Word ". I don't throw out any portion of God's WORD. I teach it in context, this is why I can reconcile scriptures like Rom. 2:13 and Rom. 3:20. You twist God's Word ( that's why you couldn't reconcile them ), and throw other parts out, because you don't understand the proper method, in which to handle God's Word. Yet you call yourself a teacher....... I'm not buying that one.

May the Lord help you to see the truth, and stop being double-minded like Claudia. It's not works and grace. Its works as a result of grace, and eternal life isn't conditional.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

longing4more

3734 posts

8/14/2009 11:42 am

Quoting godlycook:

I don't need to call Claudia out. She already knows my belief on this. You do call yourself a teacher, a learned one at that, and for this God will harshly judge you. Wranglings have no favor with God. Surely you know this.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/14/2009 11:45 am

Godlycook,

Look at it this way, Remember the story Jesus told of the man who owed the King a HUGE DEBT that he could not possibly pay back?

The King finally out of HIS MERCY ALONE let the man out of prison, right?

Then WHAT EFFECT did this mercy of God have upon the heart of the man?

THAT IS THE ALL-IMPORTANT QUESTION.

Answer? NONE. Obviously.

Okay well how do we KNOW THAT?

Because of the following, he went and tried to strangle someone who then owed HIM a debt and could not pay.

In other words, experiencing and seeing the mercy of the King did NOT cause his own heart to soften.

THAT is the desired effect that God wants the sacrifice of Christ to have upon OUR HEARTS.

How does He know this change has happened?

BY HOW WE GO OUT THEN AND TREAT OTHERS, is it not?

Thus, FRUIT INSPECTION TIME.

Now, you tell me, if the King inspects you or me and He finds the SAME FRUIT or lack of, that we had BEFORE He granted us mercy, is He going to allow us to stay out of prison or will He throw us back in?

You see how IN THE DAYS OF CHRIST BEFORE HIS DEATH... God was talking about SAVED BY HIS MERCY ALONE? This parable was BEFORE THE DEATH OF CHRIST, you see?

Now just because Jesus died for you, doesnt mean if you now go out and treat your neighbor like dirt, that God isnt going to take back His pardon.

Here, read it for yourself:

NEW TESTAMENT:

Heb:10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

SAME STORY, same story-line.

Now. Were we saved BY GRACE ALONE?

I say YES. Youre going out of prison and treating others as the King had treated you is NOT 'working your way to heaven'.

And if you think that it IS, then I think that you completely misunderstand the OPERATION OF THE SPIRIT UPON THE HEART OF MAN.

Its really NOTHING you ever did to earn anything, the debt was TOO HUGE to ever pay off!

All you really did was allow the Spirit of Grace to have its effect upon your heart. You YIELDED to the Spirit.

Understand?

Rom:6:19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

This is simply your 'reasonable service' and NOT payment for any debt.

You would, I think, have the people to believe God had no GRACE before the death of Christ on the Cross. And also you would have them to believe that simply showing that same grace to others, and thereby demonstrating that the grace of God has had its softening effect upon the heart is somehow 'working your way to heaven'.

GOD DOESNT CHANGE.

There arent going to be any hateful people allowed into Heaven.

1Jn:3:15: Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that NO murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

There isnt any such thing as a CHRISTIAN hateful person. Just because you claim Christ doesnt mean its now ok to be hateful, and thus, God allows you out of prison and into heaven.

MissClaudiaGirl

Ask me for a photo

8/14/2009 11:46 am

Anyway Steve,

You know Im right.

You just dont want to admit it.

So I will leave it at that.

I have explained myself enough.

longing4more

3734 posts

8/14/2009 11:49 am

Quoting godlycook:

James 2: 20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22. You see that faith was working with his works, and [20] as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, « AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,» and he was called the friend of God.

24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 1:30 pm

Quoting longing4more:

CONTEXT.....CONTEXT......CONTEXT !! YOU"RE TAKING JAMES OUT OF CONTEXT !!

THIS APPLIES TO YOU TOO ( although you're not a SDA.

" Christians don't do good, out of fear, of being judged if they don't. Christians do good because its in their nature, to do good. Unlike you ( and those who think like you ) who perform works out of desperation, hoping that God will recognize them and reward you.

Your argument isn't consistent for, if we are not " SAVED BY OUR WORKS " ( of the law ) as you say; then we can't be " JUDGED BY OUR WORKS " ( of the law ). You speak with a forked tongue ( like most serpents do ).

This is the reason you couldn't reconcile Rom. 2:13 with Rom. 3:20; because you are double-minded, half of your brain is stuck on keeping the law; which confuses the other side of your brain, into believing works = grace.

READ THE BIBLE INSTEAD OF THAT SDA GARBAGE YOU CLING TO. IF YOU PUT GARBAGE IN, YOU CAN ONLY EXPECT TO GET GARBAGE OUT. "
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

longing4more

3734 posts

8/14/2009 3:05 pm

Quoting godlycook:

I didn't take this scripture out of context. I didn't even comment on it. I presented it for your own personal consideration.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 4:39 pm

Quoting longing4more:

I didn't take this scripture out of context. I didn't even comment on it. I presented it for your own personal consideration.

You took it out of context, because you are attempting to prove your works position. And just like I did with Rom. 2:13 and Rom. 3:20; I can show how people like you, and Claudia twist what James said, just like you twist what Paul said. To support law keeping. James and Paul don't contradict each other ! But you don't understand, that by pulling what James said, out of context; you create for yourself a contradiction. And I can prove it !

You have isolated a portion of what James says, in a vain attempt to teach your false idea of law keeping. Have you even paid attention, to anything said about the difference between; those who teach works as a means of being saved; and remaining saved, from those who teach that the good works are the natural result of being born-again. You can't work hard or long enough to get saved or to stay saved. So, for you and Claudia the condition ( works of the law ) you both want to trust in, rather than in the finished work of Christ, will be your end. Those who want to live by the law, shall be judged by the law.

GOOD LUCK!!
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 5:33 pm

This was what I said to Claudia:

" Claudia........ ONCE AGAIN ETERNAL LIFE IS A GIFT, WHICH THE SON FREELY GIVES. ONLY A LAW WORKS ORIENTED INDIVIDUAL, SUCH AS YOURSELF WOULD BELIEVE SUCH A STUPID THING..... AS " ETERNAL LIFE BEING CONDITIONAL ".

THE WORK THAT GOD REQUIRES IS BELIEVING....AND YOU DON"T BELIEVE. "

Then you posted James 2:20 thru 24. After I clearly said to Claudia that salvation is not " CONDITIONAL ", you stepped in and quoted James. Why ? Do you think James is talking about earning salvation ?

Here's another puzzle for you and Claudia ( see if you two can figure this one out.

1 " What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?

2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.

3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.

5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. "

Now reconcile that ( Romans 4:1-5 ) with this ( James 2: 20 - 24 ).

20 " You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?

21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. "

Is Paul addressing a different subject than James ? Lets see how well the teacher does on this one. I can't wait.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

godlycook

4214 posts

8/14/2009 5:39 pm

Quoting MissClaudiaGirl:

Anyway Steve,

You know Im right.

You just dont want to admit it.

So I will leave it at that.

I have explained myself enough.

Anyway Claudia I know you're wrong.....but you'll never admit it. If you're going to leave, leave. You give a really poor explanation of the gospel ( its not really the gospel, its another gospel ).

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

longing4more

3734 posts

8/14/2009 9:20 pm

Quoting godlycook:

And so you will wait and wait and wait and wait and wait...because I'm not responding.

godlycook

4214 posts

8/15/2009 7:44 am

Quoting longing4more:

And so you will wait and wait and wait and wait and wait...because I'm not responding.

Awwwwww......the poor baby. Your toes must be really swollen, from being stepped on so much. Oh well......... just goes to show, weren't a good dancer at all.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7

longing4more

3734 posts

8/15/2009 11:13 am

Quoting godlycook:

Awwwwww......the poor baby. Your toes must be really swollen, from being stepped on so much. Oh well......... just goes to show, weren't a good dancer at all.

Just unequally yoked is all.

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/16/2009 1:45 pm

Quoting longing4more:

Well, thank you for your response to my statement...

Now...let me respond to your kind words...

YOU SAID: "There is no indication that you are unsaved because your heart is not right before God over a matter."

RESPONSE: Take a closer look at the Scripture you are being unfaithful to and concentrate...

Acts 8:14-24..."Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

The Holy Ghost had not yet "fallen" upon any of them that heard the Word Philip preached to them. Jesus said in John 3 that we are born from above WITH the Holy Spirit and INTO the Body of Christ. These people had only been water baptized "in the Name of the Lord."

17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. 18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, 19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

The reason Simon was able to see the Holy Ghost working on these people was because the Holy Ghost was NOT working on him. I don't know about you, but when Christ "fell" upon me I cared NOTHING about what was going on around me. My eyes were closed and my ears were attentive to hearing the voice of God resonate in my being! But I did not use my ears...it was my whole being that the Word from God enveloped. And He spoke into my life...want to know what He said? Sowwy, that Word was FOR ME! LOL

Simon did not become saved. Scripture says,"No flesh will glory in [God's] presence..." and yet Simon is in full control of his faculties enough to witness what others were experience in the power of God's Spirit upon their lives, and to covet the authority Peter and John exercised.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

Peter is clear...Simon IS going to perish just like his money. But He that does the will of the Lord lives forever!

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Simon's heart (life) is not right in God's sight. This means he is unjustified and still lost in his sin.

22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. 23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Peter called his heart and the thoughts "wickedness!" Hello? Is anyone there? You do know what God says about wickedness and wicked people? THEY PERISH!

Peter tells Simon to pray "if perhaps" those thoughts and his wicked heart be forgiven him. And Peter adds that he (Peter) PERCEIVES he is in bitterness (probably because he no longer was a 'great one' vs. 9, by reason of the two apostles and one evangelist - Philip). Peter also says that Simon is STILL IN THE BOND (slavery) of INIQUITY! Anybody still in the bond of iniquity means they are LOST and STILL IN SIN! Hello?

24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me."

Ahhh, intercession. But Peter commanded Simon to PRAY FOR HIMSELF! Salvation comes when one is face to face with ones' sin! Hello? That's what the Holiness of God does in man. God's Holiness forces the man (or woman) to confess (SAY THE SAME THING AS GOD) your sin and God's presence makes one feel LIKE DIRT! If the Holy Spirit was working in Simon he would have been IN THE DIRT prostrate before God! I've been there many times. Have you? HalleluJAH!

YOU SAID: "It's something that should be corrected, but it's not evidence of not being saved. It's merely an indication that his heart wasn't in line with God concerning that particular matter."

RESPONSE: Sorry. Scripture tells us that IT IS evidence of being unsaved. A heart NOT RIGHT with God is a heart that is still in sin. Simon could not correct it because he doesn't have the power being that he is a dead-man walking (Eph. 2:1). Hello? He cannot resurrect himself.

YOU SAID: "He was also prayed over for forgiveness of his sin..."

RESPONSE: You are adding to the text. You are adding to the Bible. Shame on you, Christian! That's a sign of a false disciple!

YOU SAID: "There is a time when everyone saved of Christ isn't right in a matter..."

RESPONSE: Yes...that's IF Simon was saved, but Peter describes his wicked heart and unjustified life. You ever learn but just can't come to the knowledge of the truth. Listen to me and I will school you and teach you a few things. I'll teach you truth! Scripture truth!

YOU SAID: "This requires repentance. If this be true, it invalidates your saved by grace only theory, for God requires repentance."

RESPONSE: Disagree. Repentance ALSO is a gift FROM GOD! Everything going to the salvation of a sinner is a gift FROM GOD...even repentance! Simon could not repent because it was not given him TO repent. God did not want this one. But God used this event/story to teach us true believers about FALSE CONVERSIONS!

Acts 11:18..."When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

Hello? There can be no clearer statement on the doctrine of repentance.

Grace Alone, Triumphs! The Word of God stands true! It is NOT a theory, but the very Word of God!

Ephesians 2:8-9..."For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You, my dear friend, are a woman who boasts. And if one boasts, Scripture teaches me they are NOT saved!

Case Closed!

Salvation is of the LORD

jeremiah1five

Ask me for a photo

958 posts

8/19/2009 11:01 am

Quoting longing4more:

Hello Longing4more...

I hope you are having a nice day.

I'm quoting you because you said to Godlycook...

YOU SAID: "GC throws out volumes of what God says in order to fit his argument. God help GC, for he will be harshly judged for arguing away God's word. James 2: 13. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment."

MY QUESTION TO YOU: Is throwing out God's Word the same as deleting God's Word from your post so that its truth would not be seen as to contradict your personal belief?

I'm just wondering because you deleted Scripture I presented that did contradict your argument on your blog. How can you do the thing you are telling others not to do? What's the word for that kind of behavior?

I hope my concern for your testimony is taken in a good spirit. I am really caring for you that you do not destroy your testimony by allowing your left hand know what your right hand is doing. We need to make sure of our posting so that Jesus Christ is honored, and not dishonored.

Salvation is of the LORD

Godwhispers

1727 posts

9/8/2009 8:13 am

Quoting longing4more:

(you're so in love with yourself)

lol... once again YOU get put into your place and all you can say is "YOU ARE SO IN LOVE WITH YOURSELF"? I want to know what gives you the right to tell others that they are going to be HARSHLY JUDGED by GOD? Have you not read all your blog/posts or your responses/comments lately, wait a minute here, did somebody give you the AUTHORITY to say and do whatever you want and not be ACCOUNTABLE... LIAR

Rom. 5:8
while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

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