 | Blogs > godlycook > WHAT IS MAN'S CHIEF END ? > THIS IS FOR PETE ( Noah235 ) |
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godlycook
9/29/2008 11:12 amLast Read: |
Pete this is a repost of a reply I made to someone else. I don't have the time here ( and I wouldn't want use your space ) to answer some of what you have stated. Some true and some not so true. For example, you show these three system's as being similar on points where they actually disagree. Pelagius was a religious ascetic, who not only believed; that man had the power to save himself; but he also believed in, and taught sinless perfection. Augustine's writings ( Riches; Evil Teachers; The possibility of Sinlessness; etc. ) exposed this heresy. It was Luther who referred to Arminius ( and I might add correctly ) as nothing more than a semi-pelagian. For Arminius' teachings varied little from those of Pelagius. Both believed in sinless perfection and the ability of man to save himself ( Arminius added; with a little help from God ); Pelagius believed man needed no help from God. Both Augustine and Luther held to the Biblical view of man and sin; ( so I don't understand your need to give the Biblical view ), you're inferring that Augustine and Luther ( and men like them, who based their teachings on God's Word ) didn't hold to the teachings of scripture. Either you'll have a Biblical view of man and sin ( as did Augustine and Luther ) or you'll have a humanistic view of man and sin ( as did Pelagius and Arminius ), there is no middle ground. Even today churches that hold to the Arminian view of man and sin; see mans salvation as the work of man, from beginning to end. I recall Jimmy Swaggart preaching from the book of John where he read from the 10th chapter verses 27 - 30, [size 4" My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one. " Then ( and I'll never forget his words ) Jimmy Swaggart said...... " But you can jump out. " Jimmy Swaggert holds to the Pelagian view of man, and believes man is ultimately responsible for his own salvation. His view, is man made and any view where man makes himself as powerful as God ( you can jump out ); is not holding to a biblical view of man nor salvation. I often wonder if Jimmy Swaggart really believes what he teaches, if he did he wouldn't have gotten caught in that brothel ( house of prostitution ). What if he had died before having a chance to repent ? So, can somebody explain; just how you can jump out of Jesus' and the Father's hands ? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7 |
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9/29/2008 12:19 pm |
Let's try it this way, Steve. You don't like your neighbor. He keeps looking at your wife. You've gone out in your yard at night, and seen him in HIS yard with a pair of binoculars, and you realized he's watching your wife as she undresses, through the window. This goes on for some time, and you get madder and madder. You've asked him to stop, he doesn't. You've threatened to beat the snot out of him, he continues. Finally, you've had enough. One night, you go out and nip a little hole in his brake line. Not enough so it kills his brakes immediately, but just so a few pumps will drain them. The next morning, you watch through your window as he gets in his car, and starts backing down his steep driveway towards the busy traffic below. He starts to slow, and then his brakes obviously give way, and his car rolls in front of an oncoming dump truck, which goes right over the top of his car. He's dead, and you murdered him. Now tell me, Steve. If you never come to a point where you would take it back in sincerity, and not do it, simply because you know the Lord didn't want you to, WILL YOU STILL GO TO HEAVEN?
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 9/29/2008 1:16 pm |
First of all, Steve, thanks for posting this for my benefit. As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't really matter what Pelagius, Augustine or Luther thought. It only matters what God said in his word. And I didn't get the "jumping out" thought from Jimmy Swaggert, but it doesn't matter what he thought either. When God created Adam and Eve he gave them free will. I know you're going to dispute that, but he did. He didn't give them complete free will, which would be the power to do whatever they wanted. Another word for that is OMNIPOTENCE - which of course only God can have. But he did give them a measure of free will. My evidence for that is that he gave them a command not to eat from a particular tree. If he had not given them the ability to obey or disobey that command, there would have been no point in giving it. He could have made them obey by attaching strings like you see on the old "Thunderbirds" puppets. Despite the Fall and the effect that has had on mankind, we still have the same measure of free will to obey or disobey. That MUST be the case, because if not then God must be not only forcing believers to believe and accept a heavenly destiny, but even worse, he must be forcing non-believers to reject him and accept a hellish destiny. Both acts of compulsion would be so completely against so many aspects of the character of God that we know from the Bible that we can reject them out of hand. This ability to obey or disobey is NOT salvation by works as you keep insisting it is. Think of this parallel: the Chef has grown the vegetables and reared the livestock. He has harvested the crop and killed the fatted calf. He has prepared the food, cooked it and put it on a plate in front of me. When I pick it up and eat it, would it be true to say that I have provided my own meal? OF COURSE NOT. In the same way God has done everything to provide my salvation, and I have done precisely nothing, but I still have to "taste and see that the Lord is good". But that does not mean that I have saved myself. Of course it doesn't. ANYBODY can see that! Steve, you asked the question: "How can anyone jump out of Jesus' and the Father's hands?" The answer is: if I choose to do so {and I AM free to choose this} then he will not force me to stay and will allow me to jump. Simple as that. I know you will come back with a strong reply but I have said my piece and will not respond. "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/29/2008 1:33 pm |
Let's try it this way, Steve. You don't like your neighbor. He keeps looking at your wife. You've gone out in your yard at night, and seen him in HIS yard with a pair of binoculars, and you realized he's watching your wife as she undresses, through the window. This goes on for some time, and you get madder and madder. You've asked him to stop, he doesn't. You've threatened to beat the snot out of him, he continues. Finally, you've had enough. One night, you go out and nip a little hole in his brake line. Not enough so it kills his brakes immediately, but just so a few pumps will drain them. The next morning, you watch through your window as he gets in his car, and starts backing down his steep driveway towards the busy traffic below. He starts to slow, and then his brakes obviously give way, and his car rolls in front of an oncoming dump truck, which goes right over the top of his car. He's dead, and you murdered him. Now tell me, Steve. If you never come to a point where you would take it back in sincerity, and not do it, simply because you know the Lord didn't want you to, WILL YOU STILL GO TO HEAVEN? That was quite an elaborate a story. Were you attempting to answer my question ? If so you didn't even come close. The question is not, can you lose your salvation, but can you give it up. Jimmy Swaggart was saying in effect, that a Christian may not be able to lose his ( or her ) salvation, but they could give it up, by jumping out of the hands of both the Father and the Son. The Father didn't say you can jump out, and Jesus didn't say you can jump out, but wicked men add the idea of jumping out. So, I'll ask again.....How can you jump out of the Father's and Jesus' hands ? And no, I wouldn't cut my neighbors break line, because he gets off staring at my wife. There are laws against peeping Toms.   No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 1:45 pm |
Excellent summation, Peter 
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9/29/2008 1:50 pm |
*sigh* Steve, if you choose to disobey God, and choose to not repent, how is that not jumping out of God's Hands? Did you not turn your back on your own salvation by refusing to repent of your sin? My little story was the same thing as Jesus' parables, where He phrased His point in a manner that His listeners could associate with. He who has ears, LET HIM HEAR
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9/29/2008 6:06 pm |
Personally, I think it's pretty tempting to buy the "I can do anything I want I'm always saved" line of reasoning. However, I can't swallow that. Here are a few scriptures to ponder for those of you who have not decided to which side of this debate you belong. Many believe that once they have made and Altar Call (Profession of Faith) that they are assured of Heaven. Those who have such a belief should carefully examine the following Bible passages. Saint Paul: "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." KJV - Romans 11:22 Saint Paul: "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. KJV - 1 Cor. 9:26-27 Saint Paul: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." KJV - 1 Cor. 10:12 Saint Paul: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." KJV - 2 Cor. 5:10 Saint Paul: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." KJV - Philip. 2:12 1st Corinthians 15:2 states, that vain is the belief of those who go against the word of God. 1st John 1:6 states, "If we say, "We have fellowship with `Jesus'," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie & do not act in truth. 1st John 2:15 & 16 - If anyone loves sensual lust, enticements of the eyes, or a pretentious life, the love of God the Father is not in him. 1st John 3:9 & 15 says, "No one begotten by God commits sin", & "that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him". begotten: used in the sense of having been acquired by, permanently committed too. Romans 8  -8 "For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Hebrews 10:26-29 "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?" 2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them." Hebrews 4:6-7 "Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, he once more set a day, "today," when long afterwards he spoke through David, as already quoted: "Oh, that today you would hear his voice: 'Harden not your hearts.' " Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt." Hebrews 4:2 "For in fact we have received the good news just as they did. But the word that they heard did not profit them, for they were not united in faith with those who listened." Hebrews 12:4-13 "In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood. You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: "My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges." Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not (then) submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live? They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it. So strengthen your drooping hands and your weak knees. Make straight paths for your feet, that what is lame may not be dislocated but healed." From one bride to another, God keep you, bless you, increase you, Rhonda 
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9/29/2008 6:09 pm |
Well Pete....... I don't know what else I can say to try and show you that you are holding to a salvation of works. I asked the question ( and you haven't done any better, than Danny with his answer ); " Just how can you jump out of Jesus' and the Father's hands ? " Your response was, " Free-Will " The question isn't addressing man's omnipotence ( what even makes you believe, that man is even partially omnipotent ) but the Omnipotence of ALMIGHTY GOD. The question ( and the text its derived from ) doesn't assume that man has the power to outdo God. The text shows that those who have been given to the Son, by the Father are His possession. He keeps them safe, and just as an extra measure He ( the Son ), has the added power of the Father in keeping the sheep safe and secure. These two are indeed OMNIPOTENT. The problem with so many today ( as well as throughout history ), is that they have a God complex ( thinking they are just as powerful as God ); because in order to be able to make that jump, you'd have to be stronger than God. You'd need enough strength to be able to pry their ( the Father & the Son's ) hands apart. Only a fool would believe something so ridiculous, and man isn't even strong enough to break himself free from the power of Satan, and thats a fact. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 6:11 pm |
Excellent summation, Peter No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 6:30 pm |
You see that which you wish to see, and ignore the rest. As I said, my particular persuasion of Christianity is some of the most legalistic there are, and they derive it all from Paul's words. You speak of freedom of grace, Steve, and say that if you're saved, you're saved forever. If so, how are we saved? By belief only, so that our actions don't count? Whether or not we sin, we're saved, whether or not we repent we're saved, and so forth? Let us say, for sake of argument, that you are right and JESUS says that once He saves you, you are forever saved. Tell us how one becomes saved, then....proceed through the gospel, step by step, as if you were leading us to Salvation...
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9/29/2008 6:32 pm |
*sigh* Steve, if you choose to disobey God, and choose to not repent, how is that not jumping out of God's Hands? Did you not turn your back on your own salvation by refusing to repent of your sin? My little story was the same thing as Jesus' parables, where He phrased His point in a manner that His listeners could associate with. He who has ears, LET HIM HEAR No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 7:46 pm |
As I said, the text in question shows possession. Christ is holding His sheep, not waiting for them to come to Him. They have already been saved. Your story wasn't anything like Jesus' parables, His parables taught spiritual truths. Your story was an attempt to disprove a Biblical truth. Seems as though you are. Can you say it clearly up front just so we are CERTAIN that is what you believe and are trying to preach/discuss here... Perfection... Possible? Yup... IF ya wanna TRY.
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9/29/2008 7:52 pm |
Personally, I think it's pretty tempting to buy the "I can do anything I want I'm always saved" line of reasoning. However, I can't swallow that. Here are a few scriptures to ponder for those of you who have not decided to which side of this debate you belong. Many believe that once they have made and Altar Call (Profession of Faith) that they are assured of Heaven. Those who have such a belief should carefully examine the following Bible passages. Saint Paul: "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." KJV - Romans 11:22 Saint Paul: "I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. KJV - 1 Cor. 9:26-27 Saint Paul: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." KJV - 1 Cor. 10:12 Saint Paul: "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." KJV - 2 Cor. 5:10 Saint Paul: "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." KJV - Philip. 2:12 1st Corinthians 15:2 states, that vain is the belief of those who go against the word of God. 1st John 1:6 states, "If we say, "We have fellowship with `Jesus'," while we continue to walk in darkness, we lie & do not act in truth. 1st John 2:15 & 16 - If anyone loves sensual lust, enticements of the eyes, or a pretentious life, the love of God the Father is not in him. 1st John 3:9 & 15 says, "No one begotten by God commits sin", & "that no murderer has eternal life remaining in him". begotten: used in the sense of having been acquired by, permanently committed too. Romans 8 -8 "For the concern of the flesh is hostility toward God; it does not submit to the law of God, nor can it; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Hebrews 10:26-29 "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?" 2 Peter 2:20-21 "For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them." Hebrews 4:6-7 "Therefore, since it remains that some will enter into it, and those who formerly received the good news did not enter because of disobedience, he once more set a day, "today," when long afterwards he spoke through David, as already quoted: "Oh, that today you would hear his voice: 'Harden not your hearts.' " Hebrews 6:4-6 "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt." Hebrews 4:2 "For in fact we have received the good news just as they did. But the word that they heard did not profit them, for they were not united in faith with those who listened." Hebrews 12:4-13 "In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood. You have also forgotten the exhortation addressed to you as sons: "My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges." Endure your trials as "discipline"; God treats you as sons. For what "son" is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards. Besides this, we have had our earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them. Should we not (then) submit all the more to the Father of spirits and live? They disciplined us for a short time as seemed right to them, but he does so for our benefit, in order that we may share his holiness. At the time, all discipline seems a cause not for joy but for pain, yet later it brings the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who are trained by it. So strengthen your drooping hands and your weak knees. Make straight paths for your feet, that what is lame may not be dislocated but healed." " Why not say- as we are being slanderously reported and as some claim that we say- " Let us do evil that good may result "? There condemnation is deserved. "Rom. 3:8 Paul ( and the other Apostles ) was always being accused of teaching lawlessness by the Pharisees; because of his stance on the law, the preaching of grace and forgiveness of our sins. So this lead people who think like you, to devise the idea that the Christian position meant that once you were saved, you could live like the devil; because we believe all our sins are forgiven, and we already have eternal life. You've strung together a list of scriptures ( similar to Claudia ), in an attempt to prove Christians can lose their salvation. You've taken each text out of context, and you're turning Christ into a lier. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 10:15 pm |
I didn't take my text out of context, I quoted Christ, and His text CLEARLY says that those who break God's Laws will be judged by Him at the end of time. Since that is yet a future event to occur, then we know you cannot fall back on the "Old Testament" argument for dispensation. Finally, in clear English that cannot be mistaken, Steve: If you sin against God, break His Law, and do not repent, will Jesus condemn you at the Great White Throne? Your opinion is valid, but we deserve to know where you stand, if you expect us to respect your opinions. Do you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, or not? I do not consider that a salvation-critical belief unless A: You cause somebody to stumble by teaching that, or B: You refuse to repent of your sin because you think you don't have to, you're saved regardless. If you sin against God and do not repent, will you go to hell?
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9/29/2008 10:31 pm |
Quoting Godlycook: "The problem with so many today...is that they... think they are just as powerful as God ); because in order to be able to make that jump, you'd have to be stronger than God. You'd need enough strength to be able to pry their ( the Father & the Son's ) hands apart. Only a fool would believe something so ridiculous, and man isn't even strong enough to break himself free from the power of Satan, and thats a fact. If you can't break free of satan's grasp unless the power of Christ frees you, then surely you understand satan tempting someone to walk away from God. It isn't a matter of God being stronger than satan either. God will take you into safekeeping if you're willing. There's alway the issue of loving your sins more than God, where you would choose to abandon God in exchange for the pleasures of the world. Godlycook said: "You've strung together a list of scriptures...in an attempt to prove Christians can lose their salvation." I don't think anyone "wants" to argue that you can lose your salvation. It's a sobering truth, and should be the warning of every serious pastor/preacher, that we take our salvation and relationship with God seriously.  Anyway God's scriptures are the truths we need to lean on when we go into debate, so if these guys are coming up with a string of scriptures, why won't you heed God's word?My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
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9/30/2008 6:27 am |
I didn't take my text out of context, I quoted Christ, and His text CLEARLY says that those who break God's Laws will be judged by Him at the end of time. Since that is yet a future event to occur, then we know you cannot fall back on the "Old Testament" argument for dispensation. Finally, in clear English that cannot be mistaken, Steve: If you sin against God, break His Law, and do not repent, will Jesus condemn you at the Great White Throne? Your opinion is valid, but we deserve to know where you stand, if you expect us to respect your opinions. Do you believe in Once Saved, Always Saved, or not? I do not consider that a salvation-critical belief unless A: You cause somebody to stumble by teaching that, or B: You refuse to repent of your sin because you think you don't have to, you're saved regardless. If you sin against God and do not repent, will you go to hell? This is a pertinent point you make about this not being a salvation-critical belief unless A, It causes someone to stumble or B. A person believing this way refuses to repent, because they feel they don't need to. This is a very real possibility. I have known people who actually do live this way. I know a woman who used to sin and actually say, "oh well, God is the forgiver, so he forgives me." When I told her yes, he does but we must be sorry for our sin and turn away from it-she got in a snit and wouldn't speak to me again. She was happy in her sin and didn't want me to mention it. This has been a great discussion and you are balanced and make wonderful points. GBU From one bride to another, God keep you, bless you, increase you, Rhonda
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9/30/2008 9:32 pm |
heartforedjehu This is exactly what Peter wrote about when he said that ignorant people twist the word Paul preached because they don't understand. First of all Steve no where implied that a Christian can live any way they want. That doctrine may be rampant in some Baptist circles but not in the Reformed camp. Many false teachers misquote scripture to prove a doctrine. First of all did you know that the bible says repentance is a gift from God so how can you repent without God giving you the power to do so? You cannot. Many of the scriptures you gave were taken out of context. Try reading all the bible and stop quoting half scripture!!! For instance....Take Romans 11...Paul is talking about his chosen elect among the Israelites (By the way he also has a chosen elect today) .....you forgot to quote the whole chapter within its context. Paul is not referring to individuals, but societies. The Jewish society as a whole was the "branch" broken off that he is referring to. But that is not true on an individual basis, for many Jews did believe. Paul's warning about being cut off is referring to the Gentiles as a group, or more specifically, to the society in which these Christians lived. This warning is repeated by Jesus in the first three chapters of Revelations where he said If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Romans 11 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. [COLOR blue](According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear  unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 9:46 pm |
John says those born of God do not live in unrighteousness...who does? Not backsliders as there is no such term in the new testament but rather those who are not born of God. What sin can one commit to be lost? None except blasphemy and only the unsaved blaspheme. Many think they are saved when in fact they are not. There is a false anointing, Satan is sooooo clever, he can fake quite well the things of God (gifts)....that is why Paul says that You did not receive another spirit.....or another Jesus. Christians are called to love the brethren BUT NOT DECEIVERS!!! John is talking about apostates. 1 John 2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 9:55 pm |
Those who teach false doctrine will be eternally lost. Misquoting scripture is a serious sin!!! Can one who is born of God fall away? No, but an Apostate thinks they are Christian when in fact they are decievers. They do not care about truth but only about proving their deception. Those who say they are Christians but live in darkness which can also be deception, lie and do not the truth. are not born of God!!! A Christian may sin at times (no one but God is perfect)but a Christian does not live in darkenss...he is not in Satans dark deception anymore but rather he is called into Gods light and in his Kingdom!!! 1 John 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 10:07 pm |
The children of the devil hate Gods children! They hate the truth and always try to come against Gods elect who present that truth...sola scriptura and not misquoted taken out of context half truths. 1 John 3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. Note ables work???? the sacrifice...Cains? Works of the flesh...toil labour...self effort Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. What commandments???? Believe on Jesus and love those born of God.... the true Christian lives in the light!! And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. Those who have the Spirit of God abide in Christ but those with a different spirit abide in darkness. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 10:12 pm |
Philip. 2:12 The famous Arminian misquote!! Try quoting all that scripture. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 10:25 pm |
This chapter is talking about not entering Gods rest...faith in Christ...those who do not enter are in unbelief...not saved!!! Jesus is Gods rest....rest from works, of man flesh, labour toil, the law, striving!!! Labour in this text means to hurry or run toward not work or toil. spoudazo is used in this scripture verse. Look it up yourself. Hebrews 4 Hebrews 4 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 10:37 pm |
This chapter is talking about false prophets not Christians...what is a false prophet??? One who comes in Christs name not sent by God and decieves. This is a unregenerated fake...a false apostate. God says in this chapter that he delievers his people from temptation sooooo he is not talking about his people. Natural men...UNSAVED!!! Knowlege of the lord does not mean salvation. To know the way does not mean one is born of God and in the faith. The gospel was delivered to them but not recieved. 2 Peter 2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 11:33 pm |
As far as Paul's chapter in Romans 11.....we must always compare scripture with scripture. This scripture is talking about the nation of Israel and not personal Christians. What does Paul say in other epistles??? Paul talks about righteousness by faith and not by works. Apostates sin because they are sinners and not Christians. Performance of works Paul says do not save....those who turn back from Christ??? No one in their right mind does this!!! They are in a mindset of darkness! Justification is the legal declaration that through the work of Christ, Christians stand in right relationship with God and His Law and are not under condemnation or wrath. Hebrews Chapter 10 describes Gods work of sanctification as a consequence of Christs atonement that has been accomplished once and for all. Paul says that Christ has established(completed) the law by his death burial and resurrection...he is the end of the law to all who believe. You need to read the bible as a whole and keep it in context. Romans 3 Romans 3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 4Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 11:45 pm |
DannyRay66 God commands only what he enables the bible says that repentance is the gift of God,....read the whole bible in context! 2 Tim,2: 25,26 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 11:56 pm |
Pride hides, love guides, Gentleness is strength, Longsuffering takes us the length (the race that Paul speaks of), Patience is a voice that says 'I'm not so special that I cannot wait (for God's best), Self Control, of the toungue, bridles an offence, humility saved the soldier's ear (His love in action), and Jesus' way of sifting Peter (blessing him really). Just a few thoughts, we are all on the potter's wheel, let us love as He loved, leaving no chance for cracks to enter the mortar of the room we stand together in. His grace is sufficient, as we work out our salvation in fear and trembling (respecting His way the shepherd fence about us), the kingdom of God is within us, let us sweep clean the pathway where our brother or sister comes into fellowship with us, replacing it with a carpet of love that comes from the author of Love, Jesus. 
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10/1/2008 2:29 am |
HisProdigal Love preaches truth....those under law have no eternal life. False love, loves people straight to hell! Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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10/1/2008 2:44 am |
False prophets or prophetesses hate the message of grace. Do you want to know why? It takes the peoples eyes off of them (their egotistical self appointed spiritual position) and puts the focus on Jesus and his atonement. They will cleverly fight grace because grace makes them look small. Jesus becomes the center of attention and they are minimized to the foolish fleshy human beings that they are. Jesus alone is good righteous and holy. Man apart from God is like a vapor here today and gone tomorrow but the Lord of Lords and King of Kings is enthroned on high forever and ever!!!!  Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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10/1/2008 5:30 am |
So are you saying "once saved always saved no matter what"- or are you NOT saying that? Seems as though you are. Can you say it clearly up front just so we are CERTAIN that is what you believe and are trying to preach/discuss here... " I did say it plainly, but you cannot receive what I say. " No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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10/1/2008 5:34 am |
Quoting Godlycook: "The problem with so many today...is that they... think they are just as powerful as God ); because in order to be able to make that jump, you'd have to be stronger than God. You'd need enough strength to be able to pry their ( the Father & the Son's ) hands apart. Only a fool would believe something so ridiculous, and man isn't even strong enough to break himself free from the power of Satan, and thats a fact. If you can't break free of satan's grasp unless the power of Christ frees you, then surely you understand satan tempting someone to walk away from God. It isn't a matter of God being stronger than satan either. God will take you into safekeeping if you're willing. There's alway the issue of loving your sins more than God, where you would choose to abandon God in exchange for the pleasures of the world. Godlycook said: "You've strung together a list of scriptures...in an attempt to prove Christians can lose their salvation." I don't think anyone "wants" to argue that you can lose your salvation. It's a sobering truth, and should be the warning of every serious pastor/preacher, that we take our salvation and relationship with God seriously. Anyway God's scriptures are the truths we need to lean on when we go into debate, so if these guys are coming up with a string of scriptures, why won't you heed God's word?No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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10/1/2008 8:08 pm |
Say it clearly.........isn't that what the Pharisees said to Christ ? What was His response ? " I did say it plainly, but you cannot receive what I say. " I know what Jesus said and meant in that OUT OF CONTEXT REFERENCE YA JUST GAVE. And I know NOW that yer a sinner who will never QUIT. Nicely done there "godlycook" Ya made soup out of piss and think we won't notice if ya add some spices, salt and the meat and taters. It's HILARIOUS that you tried to "be like Jesus" here- cuz yer only revealing that yer father IS the father of lies. Perfection... Possible? Yup... IF ya wanna TRY.
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10/1/2008 9:20 pm |
I know what Jesus said and meant in that OUT OF CONTEXT REFERENCE YA JUST GAVE. And I know NOW that yer a sinner who will never QUIT. Nicely done there "godlycook" Ya made soup out of piss and think we won't notice if ya add some spices, salt and the meat and taters. It's HILARIOUS that you tried to "be like Jesus" here- cuz yer only revealing that yer father IS the father of lies. After two years of " plainly " stating my position, on this subject; you have the audacity to ask me to " say it clearly up front ". Pull your head out of your butt, and maybe you'll be able to hear better. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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10/1/2008 10:47 pm |
So, when are you going to start trusting the Lord ? My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
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10/1/2008 10:54 pm |
And I thought Gordy was turning a new leaf and turned nice. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
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10/2/2008 12:58 am |
Gordy is just bugging you Steve. He thinks you have to be perfect to be saved.....well that leaves him out! Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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10/2/2008 9:40 am |
As I said- the "cook" is not making soup for Christ's followers- but for sinners who think piss makes good soup stock. | ||
