 | Blogs > godlycook > WHAT IS MAN'S CHIEF END ? > REPOST OF ITS THE LAW |
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godlycook
9/29/2008 10:37 amLast Read: |
It was Charles Trumble who said, " The greatest heresy ever to plague the Christian church; is Christians trying to live the Christian life."To put it another way, Christians trying to keep the law to aid them in living the Christian life. If you remember I asked two questions about God giving the law to Israel. 1. Did God give the law to Israel as an expression of His expectations ? 2. Did God give the law to Israel as an expression of His requirement ? The answer to the question should be obvious; that the Lord never expected Israel or anyone else to obey ( keep without fault ) the law. In fact Israel almost immediately started breaking God's law even though they had said, "all that the LORD has spoken we will do." Ex. 19:8 In Dt. the fifth chapter after Mose read the law to Israel; they said to Mose tell us all that the LORD our God says to you, and we will hear and do it. But the LORD had said to Mose the people would not obey Him. " Then the LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me: I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They are right in all that they have spoken. Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever ! "Dt. 5:28-29 After the fall of man in the garden, mans heart became so corrupt; making him incapable of obeying God's law without fault. So why did God give the law ? It was added so the trespass might increase. Rom. 5:20 So anyone who thinks he (or she) is able to keep the law; consider this-you only cause your sin to increase. In Rom. 7:4-6 Paul tells the Christians; that we have died to the law, that we might belong to another ( Christ ), in order to bear fruit to God. In verse 5 Paul says something quite profound, and it was difficult for the Jewish mind ( and many Christian minds today ) to comprehend. For to them the law was always associated with righteousness ( Dt. 6:25 ), but Paul had the audacity to associate the law with sin. " For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death." We too, must make this same association. Then we will recognize; how sin takes opportunity through the commandment; producing in us every kind of sinful desire. Rom. 7:8 The righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us ( Rom. 8:4 ), not by us as some would have us believe. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, and our sin is no longer imputed to us. Rom. 4: 7-8 [size 4" Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." Amen! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7 |
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 9/29/2008 11:36 am |
I have been soooo trying to tell people that.... it is Christ in me that lives and not I...he can keep his law...after all he made it! I am complete in him the bible says!!! COMPLETE...COMPLETE ....COMPLETE....no need to add nothing....he is the end of the law to all who believe and HAVE FAITH IN HIS BLOOD..SOLA SCRIPTURA! HAVE A BLESSED DAY IN JESUS STEVE!  Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/29/2008 11:37 am |
The principles of Grace are understandable Steve, but how do you reconcile the above with the Statement of Christ Himself In Matthew 7 verses 21-23. Christ clearly says that professing Christians are the topic of discussion there, and that if they break God's Laws, He will JUDGE them. Grace tells me that the only ones He will judge will be those who fail to repent. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." Do you say that forgiveness is automatic for us, or must we seek it with a repentant heart?
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9/29/2008 11:44 am |
We are to die to SELF because the sinful human nature loves to sin. We are MARRIED to Self and sin. We have to consent to let self die, so that we can then be married to Christ. We are to be BURIED by Baptism. Thats the old man of sin, then RESURRECTED to walk in new life with the Spirit, now married to Christ, who lives in us. Now we begin walking in the Law. Walking in Righteousness. When Paul said this: 21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. what he meant was that okay heres the Law, the 10 Commandment LAW... Self with sinful human nature naturally is carnal, hates the Law of God... so I keep sinning. But as long as I am married to self, and keep loving to hang onto my old way of life, I am UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH... if I sin, I will die... thats the LAW. The Law isnt SIN... the Law DEFINES Sin. You are trying to KILL THE WRONG THING! Dont kill the Law, Kill SELF... Go read Romans the whole of Chapter 6. Jesus is my Saviour, I shall not be moved.
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9/29/2008 11:47 am |
The principles of Grace are understandable Steve, but how do you reconcile the above with the Statement of Christ Himself In Matthew 7 verses 21-23. Christ clearly says that professing Christians are the topic of discussion there, and that if they break God's Laws, He will JUDGE them. Grace tells me that the only ones He will judge will be those who fail to repent. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." Do you say that forgiveness is automatic for us, or must we seek it with a repentant heart? He doesnt understand THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH... and confuses that. Rom:8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. Jesus is my Saviour, I shall not be moved.
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9/29/2008 11:50 am |
Honestly, I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I'm just seeking clarification on your position. For instance, in Verse 5, Paul begins with "For when we were in the flesh..." Until the day we die, we are all in the Flesh. One must look at the Bible literally unless the context says otherwise. The context of that scripture says to take it literally, not figuratively, nor to assign a mystical meaning to it. I am in the flesh, or I would be incapable of typing this right now. The verse goes on to say that the sinful passions that were AROUSED by the Law were at work to bear fruit unto death. The Law does not cause us to sin, Brother. The Law exists BECAUSE we sin. God did not make the commandment "Do not commit murder" so that people would, He made it to warn people NOT TO. There is NO WAY we can keep the Law, there is no doubt of that. When there was but one law, we couldn't obey even that. Without Grace we're all doomed, but Grace is not a lifestyle or a condition of our hearts, it's UNDESERVED FAVOR FROM GOD. God looks on us with favor because we place our lives and faith in the hands of His Son, and for that reason only. Everyone talks about Grace like it's a suit we put on and wear, when it's not. It's how God sees US, through Jesus' eyes. When He sees that we love His Son, and that we regret and repent of hurting His Son, He frees us with HIS Grace. His undeserved Forgiveness. We don't deserve to receive His forgiveness, He gives it to us because we love Jesus. Am I right? -Danny
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9/29/2008 11:54 am |
Matter of fact, LOOK at how the entire dissertation of Paul begins in Romans chaopter 7: Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law), how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? the entire idea is that WE WE WE are supposed to DIE, not the Law! Jesus is my Saviour, I shall not be moved.
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9/29/2008 1:44 pm |
I have been soooo trying to tell people that.... it is Christ in me that lives and not I...he can keep his law...after all he made it! I am complete in him the bible says!!! COMPLETE...COMPLETE ....COMPLETE....no need to add nothing....he is the end of the law to all who believe and HAVE FAITH IN HIS BLOOD..SOLA SCRIPTURA! HAVE A BLESSED DAY IN JESUS STEVE! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 2:12 pm |
The principles of Grace are understandable Steve, but how do you reconcile the above with the Statement of Christ Himself In Matthew 7 verses 21-23. Christ clearly says that professing Christians are the topic of discussion there, and that if they break God's Laws, He will JUDGE them. Grace tells me that the only ones He will judge will be those who fail to repent. "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." Do you say that forgiveness is automatic for us, or must we seek it with a repentant heart? Then compare the response of the true believers in Matt. 25:34-40 who are praised for their good deeds ( done for and to Christ ), which they unknowingly had done. They say, " then the righteous will answer him, ' Lord when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give something to drink ? '...... This group is so humble that they aren't even aware of any works they had done, they weren't looking at themselves; like the other group does. What's the moral behind both groups ? Don't rely on anything ( no matter how small ) you do to please God. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 2:33 pm |
Claudia_T We are already dead who are in Christ...we are crucified with him, buried in Baptism, and are new creatures...WE are only to abide in Christ...rest in Jesus who is our Sabbath...he does the work...he changes hearts...you can do nothing...the flesh profits nothing IT IS THE SPIRT THAT GIVES LIfE  Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/29/2008 2:34 pm |
We are to die to SELF because the sinful human nature loves to sin. We are MARRIED to Self and sin. We have to consent to let self die, so that we can then be married to Christ. We are to be BURIED by Baptism. Thats the old man of sin, then RESURRECTED to walk in new life with the Spirit, now married to Christ, who lives in us. Now we begin walking in the Law. Walking in Righteousness. When Paul said this: 21: I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22: For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. what he meant was that okay heres the Law, the 10 Commandment LAW... Self with sinful human nature naturally is carnal, hates the Law of God... so I keep sinning. But as long as I am married to self, and keep loving to hang onto my old way of life, I am UNDER THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH... if I sin, I will die... thats the LAW. The Law isnt SIN... the Law DEFINES Sin. You are trying to KILL THE WRONG THING! Dont kill the Law, Kill SELF... Go read Romans the whole of Chapter 6. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 2:34 pm |
There is something for US to do here... Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Rom:6:19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. Jesus is my Saviour, I shall not be moved.
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9/29/2008 2:36 pm |
This is a classic example of people trying to misinterpret the writings of the Apostle Paul.... read what I said, thats the correct interpretation of it, I will post something by EJ Waggoner about Romans chapter 7 in a minute at my blog... He doesnt understand THE LAW OF SIN AND DEATH... and confuses that. Rom:8:2: For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 2:48 pm |
Have to disagree with you, Steve. Professing Christians are those who claim the name of Christ. Whether or not they actually belong to Him is a different story. I'm well aware of the moral of the story for your example Steve. The question is WHAT was Jesus Saying in the example I gave you from Matthew 7?
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9/29/2008 2:54 pm |
IF YOU THROUGH THE SPIRIT MORTIFY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY...WHERE CLAUDIA DOES IT SAY YOU, AS IN SOLO??? Jesus is doing it through the born again Christian....those who keep the Sabbath are under the law but those who have the sabbath are in grace. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/29/2008 2:54 pm |
*sigh* I don't get why people can't just look at the words of Christ and say "Yes, Lord". They have to either pretend not to see them, or use someone else's words or doctrine to explain them away. You like to post studies, Steve. I would like to see how YOU interpret Matthew chapter 7, verses 15-29
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9/29/2008 2:57 pm |
Gal. 3: 19-29 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/29/2008 3:04 pm |
Honestly, I'm not trying to start a debate or argument, I'm just seeking clarification on your position. For instance, in Verse 5, Paul begins with "For when we were in the flesh..." Until the day we die, we are all in the Flesh. One must look at the Bible literally unless the context says otherwise. The context of that scripture says to take it literally, not figuratively, nor to assign a mystical meaning to it. I am in the flesh, or I would be incapable of typing this right now. The verse goes on to say that the sinful passions that were AROUSED by the Law were at work to bear fruit unto death. The Law does not cause us to sin, Brother. The Law exists BECAUSE we sin. God did not make the commandment "Do not commit murder" so that people would, He made it to warn people NOT TO. There is NO WAY we can keep the Law, there is no doubt of that. When there was but one law, we couldn't obey even that. Without Grace we're all doomed, but Grace is not a lifestyle or a condition of our hearts, it's UNDESERVED FAVOR FROM GOD. God looks on us with favor because we place our lives and faith in the hands of His Son, and for that reason only. Everyone talks about Grace like it's a suit we put on and wear, when it's not. It's how God sees US, through Jesus' eyes. When He sees that we love His Son, and that we regret and repent of hurting His Son, He frees us with HIS Grace. His undeserved Forgiveness. We don't deserve to receive His forgiveness, He gives it to us because we love Jesus. Am I right? -Danny Thats what Paul is explaining, when he says, the law aroused the sin nature ( excites the sin nature ) which produce works that lead to death. This is why people who think like Claudia, need to stop relying on the law, because its killing them. The power of sin is the law, and Paul says so: [size 4" The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. "1 Cor. 15:56 So you're correct " There is no way we can keep the Law "; but people are dying..... trying. Grace is undeserved kindness.......God doesn't save us because we did ( or do ) anything. We love Him because He first loved us, we only love God because He acted first, by showing us mercy, we are wooed as it were, and God is the wooer; who we cannot ignore. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 3:12 pm |
Matter of fact, LOOK at how the entire dissertation of Paul begins in Romans chaopter 7: Know ye not, brethren (for I speak to them that know the law), how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? the entire idea is that WE WE WE are supposed to DIE, not the Law! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 3:23 pm |
There is something for US to do here... Rom:6:13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Rom:6:16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Rom:6:19: I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 3:27 pm |
Did Jesus say the law has no dominion? It's funny that you say all these things that the law says, but Jesus never said one of them. And that verse doesn't say that the law has dominion over everybody but true believers, it says over everybody, period. This is the point I've been making. People add words or phrases to get the meaning they want. They don't take it literally, word for word, as it's written. And when Jesus says something, they just pretend not to see it or they try to use someone else's words to nullify the meaning, such as one man who said it was before the crucifixion, so it's old covenant. I suppose your answer to the other question about murdering your neighbor would be that if you'd murdered him, you were never saved to begin with, so you can't lose a salvation you never had by not repenting, right?
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9/29/2008 3:33 pm |
Have to disagree with you, Steve. Professing Christians are those who claim the name of Christ. Whether or not they actually belong to Him is a different story. I'm well aware of the moral of the story for your example Steve. The question is WHAT was Jesus Saying in the example I gave you from Matthew 7? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 3:42 pm |
*sigh* I don't get why people can't just look at the words of Christ and say "Yes, Lord". They have to either pretend not to see them, or use someone else's words or doctrine to explain them away. You like to post studies, Steve. I would like to see how YOU interpret Matthew chapter 7, verses 15-29 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 3:45 pm |
The "true believer" is only who is directed by the Holy Spirit! If it's predestinated or not doesn't matter here!! FLESH (SARX) and BODY (SOMA) are not the same things... and that isn't actually covered by the Jewish thinking in OT. The "flesh" for Paul is the "old, sinful man", the "natural man", BEFORE he gets renewed! Ergo, responding to Danny, when one really is in Christ, it's not the "flesh" that is writing or keeps on living... the flesh should DIE with the renewal, although the possibility to "fall" again in its "lusts" is not completely eradicated! God, through Jesus and then the Holy Spirit (Parakletos), has finally given "the possibility" to mastering the flesh! The "door" to heaven is open again! God has reconciled himself with mankind! BUT... mankind that ARE willing to go through that door with the consequences involved... To "fall out of it" it would never be God's fault, but man's. Why is this so difficult to understand???
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9/29/2008 3:54 pm |
Did Jesus say the law has no dominion? It's funny that you say all these things that the law says, but Jesus never said one of them. And that verse doesn't say that the law has dominion over everybody but true believers, it says over everybody, period. This is the point I've been making. People add words or phrases to get the meaning they want. They don't take it literally, word for word, as it's written. And when Jesus says something, they just pretend not to see it or they try to use someone else's words to nullify the meaning, such as one man who said it was before the crucifixion, so it's old covenant. I suppose your answer to the other question about murdering your neighbor would be that if you'd murdered him, you were never saved to begin with, so you can't lose a salvation you never had by not repenting, right? " the sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. " Do you take that literally, or do you want to ignore it. I didn't add anything, I didn't twist it or give it a different meaning. I think its pretty clear. Don't fight it submit to it. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 5:14 pm |
Danny I thought I made that pretty clear. The group you refer to in Matt. 7 had never been known by Christ. He couldn't say to them " I never knew you ", without making Himself a lier, all who truly come to Christ are known by Christ; from before the foundation of the world. Stop trying to force the text, into saying something its not really saying. People go out and teach all these things BESIDES what Jesus taught, and in opposition to what Jesus taught. They did all these things in Jesus' name, but they don't belong to Him, He doesn't know them. At the end, all these people who talk about secret knowledge and secret revelation of scripture, what will they reap? Would you say someone who tells you that what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount doesn't matter, that Jesus knows such a person? If Jesus says that the Law stands as long as the earth does, does that mean He doesn't know you if you disobey the Law? How can you be sure that Jesus will know you, when the day comes? Because you preached HIS words, or someone else's? In regard to your final question, Paul also said without the Law, we wouldn't know we had sinned, but if that were so, how did Cain know he sinned when he slew Abel? The Law, going by your theory, didn't exist until Moses brought it down the mountain, yet God still judged the world for their iniquities, burned Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, destroyed the entire earth in a flood, and scattered the citizens of Babel across the earth. Was He unjust in that, or were people just sinning, and didn't care? How did they know they were sinning? BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN IN ALL OF US. The Law is our conscience, Steve. When you've done wrong, you KNOW it, your heart tells you so. Moses didn't have to tell you, it's built into you, along with the capacity to sin. I don't preach obedience to the Law, in and of itself. I say if you belong to Christ, you MUST obey Him, and every last thing He spoke of was LAW, Steve. The sin of homosexuality is not in the Ten Commandments, but we know it's a mortal sin, because God says it Disgusts Him. Divorce isn't in the Ten Commandments, but we know God hates it, so we try to steer clear of that. If you didn't have the words of Paul, would the words of Jesus still say the same thing to you? If so, then you don't need Paul. If not, then that shows you that Paul's words influence how you understand Jesus' words. Is that right, Steve? Should what Paul says influence how you obey what Jesus says? You rage against all of these sects and denominations, but never to stop to consider that everyone of them is founded up interpretations of what PAUL said. I am a pentecostal, and they are some of the most pharasaical Christians there are. To many of them, if you're a woman, and your hair or dress isn't the proper length, you're going to hell! Jesus never said any of that, they draw it from the words of Paul. As I said, when I read the words of Paul, I line them up with the words of Christ. If they don't line up with Christ, I ignore them, completely. What Jesus says comes first, and I refuse to vary from that. You know what? I have a strong feeling, that at the throne, Jesus IS going to know me. If there ever comes a day that there is only one man left who preaches JESUS FIRST IN ALL THINGS, it will be me. Consider that, Steve. -Danny
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9/29/2008 7:10 pm |
The "true believer" is only who is directed by the Holy Spirit! If it's predestinated or not doesn't matter here!! FLESH (SARX) and BODY (SOMA) are not the same things... and that isn't actually covered by the Jewish thinking in OT. The "flesh" for Paul is the "old, sinful man", the "natural man", BEFORE he gets renewed! Ergo, responding to Danny, when one really is in Christ, it's not the "flesh" that is writing or keeps on living... the flesh should DIE with the renewal, although the possibility to "fall" again in its "lusts" is not completely eradicated! God, through Jesus and then the Holy Spirit (Parakletos), has finally given "the possibility" to mastering the flesh! The "door" to heaven is open again! God has reconciled himself with mankind! BUT... mankind that ARE willing to go through that door with the consequences involved... To "fall out of it" it would never be God's fault, but man's. Why is this so difficult to understand??? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 10:23 pm |
Apparently you haven't been following my post long enough, or you would know what I taught about the law; before Moses came down from Mount Sinai. But for now lets look at some things you said: " People go out and teach all these things BESIDES what Jesus taught, and in opposition to what Jesus taught. They did all these things in Jesus' name, but they don't belong to Him, He doesn't know them. " My response: There are all kinds of teachers floating around these days, sadly most of them are false teachers. They aren't just in opposition to the things Jesus taught, they also disprove of what the Apostle Paul taught. Jesus and Paul agree, Paul never deviates from the teachings of Christ ( though he may sometimes touch on a subject that jesus didn't ), or Moses. What some people have a problem with, is recognizing that Paul's teachings are Just as authoritative as Jesus' teaching. You appear to be one of them. " At the end, all these people who talk about secret knowledge and secret revelation of scripture, what will they reap? Would you say someone who tells you that what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount doesn't matter, that Jesus knows such a person? If Jesus says that the Law stands as long as the earth does, does that mean He doesn't know you if you disobey the Law? My response: Who are " all these people who talk about secret knowledge.....". Are you stuck on the Sermon on the Mount ? Of course no one can say any of Jesus' teachings don't matter, and you'll never hear that from me. At the same time we can't stay on the sermon on the Mount; as if that were the only thing Jesus taught. Jesus taught many other things and we must accept all of them; remembering He doesn't contradict himself. " How can you be sure that Jesus will know you, when the day comes? Because you preached HIS words, or someone else's? " My response: I've said this before.......Christians aren't waiting to find out if Jesus knows them. He's known them from the foundations of the world ( before the world was created ), and we don't follow the teachings of another. The whole Bible is His Word. " In regard to your final question, Paul also said without the Law, we wouldn't know we had sinned, but if that were so, how did Cain know he sinned when he slew Abel? The Law, going by your theory, didn't exist until Moses brought it down the mountain, yet God still judged the world for their iniquities, burned Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, destroyed the entire earth in a flood, and scattered the citizens of Babel across the earth. Was He unjust in that, or were people just sinning, and didn't care? How did they know they were sinning? BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN IN ALL OF US. The Law is our conscience, Steve. When you've done wrong, you KNOW it, your heart tells you so. Moses didn't have to tell you, it's built into you, along with the capacity to sin. " My response: Any serious Bible student knows that Eve became the first sinner, and then Adam followed. We also know that Cain was the first murderer. So, sin was in the world, before the law was given. We are assured of this fact by the teachings of both the O.T. and the N.T. What are the first five Books of the Bible called ? Answer: The Pentateuch. And what does the word Pentateuch mean: The LAW. So technically from the Book of Genesis to the Book of Deuteronomy is LAW. Not all laws ( or commands ) were written but they were passed on orally. That known as ORAL TRANSMISSION. In Romans 5 Paul is addressing the written Law, not those commands passed on orally. paul says that the written Law was added so that the trespass might increase ( Rom. 5:20 ). The law as man's conscience isn't worth the conscience its etched on.......because man's un-regenerated conscience is corrupted, and guilty before God. " I don't preach obedience to the Law, in and of itself. I say if you belong to Christ, you MUST obey Him, and every last thing He spoke of was LAW, Steve. The sin of homosexuality is not in the Ten Commandments, but we know it's a mortal sin, because God says it Disgusts Him. Divorce isn't in the Ten Commandments, but we know God hates it, so we try to steer clear of that. " My response: Jesus taught the law in light of mans inability ( the impossibility ) of meeting the Laws Holy requirement. Whenever He expounded on the law, He explained it true meaning; rather than the shallow understanding of the Pharisees. He said he didn't come to change ( or alter or abolish ) the Law; but to fulfill it ( by keeping it perfectly ). Jesus never taught that we need to have faith in Him and observe the Law. He did however say His sheep would follow His commands ( not meaning the Ten Commandments ), and bear much fruit. " If you didn't have the words of Paul, would the words of Jesus still say the same thing to you? If so, then you don't need Paul. If not, then that shows you that Paul's words influence how you understand Jesus' words. Is that right, Steve? Should what Paul says influence how you obey what Jesus says? " My response: This is a dangerous statement, and shows that you don't have an understanding of the doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture. Both Jesus and Paul agree, so there is reason to think you don't need Paul. You want to exclude Paul because you believe Paul contradicts Jesus. He doesn't and what he has written is just as authoritative as what Jesus said. " You rage against all of these sects and denominations, but never to stop to consider that everyone of them is founded up interpretations of what PAUL said. I am a pentecostal, and they are some of the most Pharisaical Christians there are. To many of them, if you're a woman, and your hair or dress isn't the proper length, you're going to hell! Jesus never said any of that, they draw it from the words of Paul. " My response: Again, there is nothing wrong with the writings of Paul. Wicked men have distorted what Paul taught. Why don't you leave that Pharisaical church ? " As I said, when I read the words of Paul, I line them up with the words of Christ. If they don't line up with Christ, I ignore them, completely. What Jesus says comes first, and I refuse to vary from that. You know what? I have a strong feeling, that at the throne, Jesus IS going to know me. If there ever comes a day that there is only one man left who preaches JESUS FIRST IN ALL THINGS, it will be me. " My response: If you read the words of Paul, and they don't line up with what Christ said. Then the problem is with you, not Paul........ because Paul's teachings, not only line up with Christ's teachings, they are Christ's teachings. Paul didn't make it up as he went along. Consider that Danny No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 11:30 pm |
The sin nature can be to a certain extent controlled by the law but it can never be eradicated. The law was given by God to fallen man in order to show mankind that without Gods nature they cannot keep the law. All fall short in some way. All offend the law in one point or the other. The requirements of the law are perfection so in essence to try to obey any of them is futile. With the law comes the knowledge of sin. Without God's law, man has no idea what is God's character. The law demonstrates who God is and what he stands for. Moses was given the law in order to control the sin nature in his chosen people the Israelites. The law did not deal with sin so God set up animal sacrifices. The sacrifices were to make atonement, or a temporal covering of forgiveness for guilt until Jesus christ should come. If the law had power to change people then there would have been no need for the sacrifices. Now on the other hand, Israel went over board at times and blatantly committed sin while using the priestly system to get away with sin. So we can see that heart motivations really do matter in regards to sin. Sinning is a normaL response for a sin nature but at the same time those who live in unrestricted sin will pay highly for it in the end. The law leads us to Jesus Christ. How? By seeing our failure. We fail so miserably striving to be perfect that it makes the soul called by God to run with arms open wide to the message of Gods grace...salvation through the atonement of his dear son. He has done it all. His blood atones for our sins...the past, present and future! Jesus is the sacrifice...a life for a life...an eye for and eye...the just for the unjust. He takes our place! So why do you want to go back under the law? Did the law save you? Did the law make you right with God? No it did not! The law is for those under the law. The non saved person!!!! A sure fire way to know who is saved and who is not....do they feel obligated to keep the law? A Christian knows his life is hid in Christ but a religious person will try to keep the law. The blood of Jesus never seems to be enough to them...they must always add to it. Are we debtors to keep the law? No! We are slaves to a new master!!! Slaves to a person. The son of God who , is our life. How do we become slaves to this new master? By being born of God...born of the holy Spirit...raised up in new life....created in righteousness and true Holiness! When this happens then the new nature is controlled by the holy Spirit who lives in him...YES LIVES IN HIM..POSSESSES HIM...Does that shock you? Probably does to the religious person...the humanist...the guy who thinks he is free. But to us who are born again we need not obey laws for the law giver lives in us and controls us...he inspires us, moves us, directs us, leads us.....reigns in us! To yield to God means to surrender...give up!!! A true Christian has died....he is buried in baptism with Christ....he is resurrected to new life...he is holy...he is righteous...he obeys the Spirit because he is controlled and completely possessed by the Spirit....THIS IS THE MYSTERY OF THE GOSPEL...CHRIST LIVING IN YOU SO IT IS NO LONGER YOU THAT IS LIVING BUT HE IS LIVING THROUGH YOU!!! THE LAW IS ESTABLISHED IN CHRIST ....BROUGHT ABOUT TO A COMPLETION. ROMANS 3 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 8:42 am |
Apparently you haven't been following my post long enough, or you would know what I taught about the law; before Moses came down from Mount Sinai. But for now lets look at some things you said: " People go out and teach all these things BESIDES what Jesus taught, and in opposition to what Jesus taught. They did all these things in Jesus' name, but they don't belong to Him, He doesn't know them. " My response: There are all kinds of teachers floating around these days, sadly most of them are false teachers. They aren't just in opposition to the things Jesus taught, they also disprove of what the Apostle Paul taught. Jesus and Paul agree, Paul never deviates from the teachings of Christ ( though he may sometimes touch on a subject that jesus didn't ), or Moses. What some people have a problem with, is recognizing that Paul's teachings are Just as authoritative as Jesus' teaching. You appear to be one of them. " At the end, all these people who talk about secret knowledge and secret revelation of scripture, what will they reap? Would you say someone who tells you that what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount doesn't matter, that Jesus knows such a person? If Jesus says that the Law stands as long as the earth does, does that mean He doesn't know you if you disobey the Law? My response: Who are " all these people who talk about secret knowledge.....". Are you stuck on the Sermon on the Mount ? Of course no one can say any of Jesus' teachings don't matter, and you'll never hear that from me. At the same time we can't stay on the sermon on the Mount; as if that were the only thing Jesus taught. Jesus taught many other things and we must accept all of them; remembering He doesn't contradict himself. " How can you be sure that Jesus will know you, when the day comes? Because you preached HIS words, or someone else's? " My response: I've said this before.......Christians aren't waiting to find out if Jesus knows them. He's known them from the foundations of the world ( before the world was created ), and we don't follow the teachings of another. The whole Bible is His Word. " In regard to your final question, Paul also said without the Law, we wouldn't know we had sinned, but if that were so, how did Cain know he sinned when he slew Abel? The Law, going by your theory, didn't exist until Moses brought it down the mountain, yet God still judged the world for their iniquities, burned Sodom and Gomorrah to the ground, destroyed the entire earth in a flood, and scattered the citizens of Babel across the earth. Was He unjust in that, or were people just sinning, and didn't care? How did they know they were sinning? BECAUSE IT IS WRITTEN IN ALL OF US. The Law is our conscience, Steve. When you've done wrong, you KNOW it, your heart tells you so. Moses didn't have to tell you, it's built into you, along with the capacity to sin. " My response: Any serious Bible student knows that Eve became the first sinner, and then Adam followed. We also know that Cain was the first murderer. So, sin was in the world, before the law was given. We are assured of this fact by the teachings of both the O.T. and the N.T. What are the first five Books of the Bible called ? Answer: The Pentateuch. And what does the word Pentateuch mean: The LAW. So technically from the Book of Genesis to the Book of Deuteronomy is LAW. Not all laws ( or commands ) were written but they were passed on orally. That known as ORAL TRANSMISSION. In Romans 5 Paul is addressing the written Law, not those commands passed on orally. paul says that the written Law was added so that the trespass might increase ( Rom. 5:20 ). The law as man's conscience isn't worth the conscience its etched on.......because man's un-regenerated conscience is corrupted, and guilty before God. " I don't preach obedience to the Law, in and of itself. I say if you belong to Christ, you MUST obey Him, and every last thing He spoke of was LAW, Steve. The sin of homosexuality is not in the Ten Commandments, but we know it's a mortal sin, because God says it Disgusts Him. Divorce isn't in the Ten Commandments, but we know God hates it, so we try to steer clear of that. " My response: Jesus taught the law in light of mans inability ( the impossibility ) of meeting the Laws Holy requirement. Whenever He expounded on the law, He explained it true meaning; rather than the shallow understanding of the Pharisees. He said he didn't come to change ( or alter or abolish ) the Law; but to fulfill it ( by keeping it perfectly ). Jesus never taught that we need to have faith in Him and observe the Law. He did however say His sheep would follow His commands ( not meaning the Ten Commandments ), and bear much fruit. " If you didn't have the words of Paul, would the words of Jesus still say the same thing to you? If so, then you don't need Paul. If not, then that shows you that Paul's words influence how you understand Jesus' words. Is that right, Steve? Should what Paul says influence how you obey what Jesus says? " My response: This is a dangerous statement, and shows that you don't have an understanding of the doctrine of the inspiration of Scripture. Both Jesus and Paul agree, so there is reason to think you don't need Paul. You want to exclude Paul because you believe Paul contradicts Jesus. He doesn't and what he has written is just as authoritative as what Jesus said. " You rage against all of these sects and denominations, but never to stop to consider that everyone of them is founded up interpretations of what PAUL said. I am a pentecostal, and they are some of the most Pharisaical Christians there are. To many of them, if you're a woman, and your hair or dress isn't the proper length, you're going to hell! Jesus never said any of that, they draw it from the words of Paul. " My response: Again, there is nothing wrong with the writings of Paul. Wicked men have distorted what Paul taught. Why don't you leave that Pharisaical church ? " As I said, when I read the words of Paul, I line them up with the words of Christ. If they don't line up with Christ, I ignore them, completely. What Jesus says comes first, and I refuse to vary from that. You know what? I have a strong feeling, that at the throne, Jesus IS going to know me. If there ever comes a day that there is only one man left who preaches JESUS FIRST IN ALL THINGS, it will be me. " My response: If you read the words of Paul, and they don't line up with what Christ said. Then the problem is with you, not Paul........ because Paul's teachings, not only line up with Christ's teachings, they are Christ's teachings. Paul didn't make it up as he went along. Consider that Danny For example, when you were explaining your view of Matthew 7, you added the words (true believers) to what Jesus said, which assigned a completely different value to the whole statement. An example of this is Romans chapter 8, verse 1. For there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. The part about walking after the flesh and spirit didn't exist in ANY of the original manuscripts. It was added in by the Roman Catholic church, and that one verse allows them to justify all their requirements for salvation. Many other churches teach the same thing, using that same extension. You cannot use allegory to interpret literal-value scripture. For example, you referred to the Sermon on the Mount. What if we added the same line to each of the Beatitudes? Blessed are the poor, they shall inherit the earth, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit. Changes the whole meaning, doesn't it? Another thing that change in Romans added: the ability to reinterpret God's Word to suit ourselves. If you look at something in the spirit, well SURELY the meaning can't mean the same as in the flesh, can it? There IS no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, period. But how are you then in Christ Jesus? How do you belong to Him? "If you love me, obey my commandments" What commandments did Christ give? He said the Law stands. He DID NOT say the Law stands for everyone but true believers, He said it stands period. You have to take His word, exactly as it is written. You can't change it to fit what you believe, no, what you believe must change to align with what Jesus says. What Paul says only aligns with Christ if you apply allegorical interpretation to Christ's words. Jesus said OBEY, without question. Without exception, you teachers use PAUL to say not to even TRY to obey. "The Law is Dead, there is only Grace" "That is Old Covenant, you live in the New Covenant" (BTW, the "old" covenant is NOT the Law, it is God's Promise to Abraham. By saying it is replaced with a new covenant, you are CALLING GOD A LIAR. You are saying He broke His word to Abraham, and changed His promise). Grace. Unmerited Favor, Undeserved Kindness, whatever you want to call it. It comes from God alone. The only reason we receive it is because we Love His Son. If we love His Son that means we what? WE OBEY HIS SON. If we do not obey, then we don't receive Grace do we? If we repent of not obeying, then we receive Grace, don't we? When you look at the words of Jesus, and Jesus only, then that is the message you receive. But when you add in the words of Paul, that message gets changed. As long as you still love Jesus and are obedient to Him, you're in no danger of losing your salvation. But if you allow Paul's words to lull you into disobedience and failure to repent, you are DOOMED. The literal truth of the matter is that what Paul teaches DOES go against what Christ teaches, unless you make the words of Christ the central words in your heart and life. Then nothing can have effect on your faith. Your house will be built on a rock that the waves and the winds cannot tumble. My faith is built on the Word of Christ. Everything I see or read in the bible, I look at in the light of that word. When my spirit moves within me, I compare it to that word to make sure it is of God. If what my spirit tells me DOES NOT line up with Jesus' words, I don't move until it does. Nothing sways my faith, I'm not battered about by all this doctrine. Yes, I am a member of a legalistic denomination, but I am not legalistic. We must obey the Law in letter and Spirit, because the Law comes from Christ, and is Holy and Good. When we fail to obey the Law, we must repent. I know it is impossible to keep the Law in every meaning of it, or Christ wouldn't have had to die for me. So I repent when I stumble. I know my words are not going to sway you, Steve, anymore than your words are going to sway me. I also have no doubt that you belong to Christ. When you and I meet in the kingdom, we are going to look at one another, and both of us are going to admit that we were wrong about a few of our pet doctrines, and probably laugh about it. The only reason either of us will be there is because we loved Christ and made Him first in our lives. Not because we obeyed the Law, or because we walked in the spirit. But because we loved Him. Even though I KNOW you will never admit it, when you stumble, you confess your fault to God and repent of it, because you love Him. You may tell everybody in the world that you don't have to, because His Grace removes blame from you whether or not you repent, but the truth is that you love Him and you DO repent. That is what got you into His Grace, to begin with. Nothing else. -Danny
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9/30/2008 12:00 pm |
DannyRay66 You will not listen when the word of God is presented to you. Therefore remember that by the law you will be judged...have fun trying to live up to that standard. You Will NEVER MAKE IT. Only God is holy. Those under the law are not under grace and have no salvation. To keep the law is to trod upon the blood of Jesus as an unholy thing. There is no forgiveness for that, Sola scriptira. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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9/30/2008 8:40 pm |
Danny you said: " Nothing sways my faith, I'm not battered about by all this doctrine. Yes, I am a member of a legalistic denomination, but I am not legalistic. We must obey the Law in letter and Spirit, because the Law comes from Christ, and is Holy and Good. When we fail to obey the Law, we must repent. I know it is impossible to keep the Law in every meaning of it, or Christ wouldn't have had to die for me. So I repent when I stumble. " This is part of your problem. You're a member of a legalistic church ( by your own confession ), you deny its effects on you; when you say you're not legalistic, while at the same time, you insist on keeping the law. Before your thinking can change, you need to get out of that legalistic church you attend. But even after you leave it, the effects of what you were taught; will follow you. You need God to begin to work in you, to free your mind, from the legal chains that bind you. Then and only then, will you be free to serve Christ in newness of life. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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10/1/2008 8:07 am |
To Steve and Sweethoney: It was Jesus who told Moses to write "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other Gods before me". JESUS said "Do not steal. Do not tell lies against your neighbor. Honor your parents. Do not burn your children on the altar to an idol. Do not lay with a man as if he were a woman" etc. et al.... We are ALL judged by the Law, and condemned, for we ALL transgress the Law. Those of us who belong to Christ are forgiven, because we belong to Him. Because we belong to Him, we repent. Because we belong to Him, when our brother asks for our coat, we give our cloak as well. Because we belong to Him, we place an offering to help the poor, or to assist a far-away mission. The Law of belonging to Christ is stiffer and more exacting than the Law of Moses ever was. Yet to belong to Christ, we are under HIS LAW. The Law of Christ DEMANDS that we love Him with all our heart, body and spirit, and love our neighbor as ourselves. The same Law says that because we Love Him, we must obey Him. If you wish to teach that Paul says to disregard that Law, then do so. It is you who will be proven wrong, not I. I merely repeat the words of Christ, you add to them, and change them, and reinterpret them. Yes, I will be judged by the Law of Christ. I have no problem with Him judging me for loving Him, for obeying Him, for teaching others to do the same. I could live in fear of His judgment for all the times that I DIDN'T love and obey Him, but because I repented of those times, HIS WORD says my faults will be remembered no more, cast into a sea of forgetfulness, separated from me as far as the east is from the west. Ye blind guides, that choke on a gnat, but swallow a camel whole... -Danny
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10/3/2008 9:45 pm |
Danny you're not consistent...... you've been telling me ( and sweethoney ) that we're wrong for teaching that Christians can't lose their salvation, then you say this: ".....but because I repented of those times, HIS WORD says my faults will be remembered no more, cast into a sea of forgetfulness, separated from me as far as the east is from the west. If your sins were cast into the sea of forgetfulness, why do you think you can go there and take them out. Thereby loosing your salvation.......if God has indeed cast your sins away ( I don't believe that to be the case ) then your fear should be casted away too. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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