 | Blogs > godlycook > WHAT IS MAN'S CHIEF END ? > WHERE DOES YOUR HOPE LIE ? |
|
|||||||
godlycook
8/27/2008 4:24 pmLast Read: |
On a previous post, I asked the question " Just How many ? ". The question dealt with, how many times can a person be saved. The obvious answer of course is ONCE. Yet even though some people voted once ( meaning you can only be saved once ), they still believe " Once saved, always saved " is a false teaching, or worse still; that the Bible also teaches " Once saved, you could be re-lost "( the notion that the Bible teaches both views ). I'm afraid that there are many people here at BC, whose hope is in the wrong thing ( mainly themselves ), and they haven't really come to faith, in Christ alone for their salvation. " a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time " The word HOPE in our English dictionaries means: aspiration, desire, wish, ambition, aim, or goal. However, the use of the word HOPE in the Biblical context, doesn't mean wishful thinking or a mere desire for something. Instead, the word HOPE in the Christian context is based upon , the certain outcome which is grounded in the finished redemptive work of Christ. Get that ? THE FINISHED REDEMPTIVE WORK OF CHRIST !! Groups like the so-called Seventh Day Adventist, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, are clearly off track when it comes to understanding what true HOPE is. But there are also many other groups; that are closer to home, which also have no real understanding of the Christian's HOPE. These other groups; are actually just as guilty, of teaching a hopeless form of Christianity as the cult groups are. God's Love endures FOREVER, says the psalmist David ( Ps. 118: 29 ) and the Apostle Paul agrees, when he says there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God ( Rom. 8: 35-39 ).For those who say they believe in Christ; but think they can be re-lost ( never to be saved again ); are committing the shameful act, of counting the death of Christ as an unholy thing, who deliberately keep sinning ( by trying to top what Christ has already done ) working at keeping the law, and laying a foundation of dead works. ( see the Book of Hebrews ). Suggesting that if its true, that all of the believers sins have been forgiven ( past, present, and future ), then the Christian can just go on sinning; proves that these people have no real sense of the doctrine of salvation, sanctification, eternal life, grace or mercy. After all, if Eternal life can be stopped ( or altered in any way ); then it wasn't really Eternal to begin with. Wake up people!! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7 |
||||||
 8/27/2008 6:02 pm |
Funnily enough it is the book of Hebrews that describes most clearly the scenario of a true believer falling away: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance" {Hebrews 6 v 4-6} If the falling away is not possible then what was the point of mentioning this? And to suggest that such a person was not a true believer to begin with does grave disservice to this passage. Peter  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/27/2008 6:11 pm |
My hope lies in Christ Jesus!  I can't get to my Father except thru him! Christians are like Timex watches. We take a lickin', but We keep on tickin'! Steve
| ||||||
8/27/2008 7:09 pm |
Funnily enough it is the book of Hebrews that describes most clearly the scenario of a true believer falling away: "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance" {Hebrews 6 v 4-6} If the falling away is not possible then what was the point of mentioning this? And to suggest that such a person was not a true believer to begin with does grave disservice to this passage. Peter To put it another way, the people being described in the Book of Hebrews, where guilty of doing the same thing, the people of Galatia were guilty of. Professing faith in Christ but insisting on observance of the law, at the same time. You can't have it both ways ( if its of works, then its not of grace ). Its a dangerous thing to mix the law with grace, and everyone, and I mean everyone; who is relying on anything they have ever done to be saved; or anything they are doing to stay saved........ is not saved ! How can anyone say they have come to know Jesus, as their saviour and Lord. Then say out of the other side of their mouth " BUT ", you can jump out of His Hand and be lost again. If that were true; then there is no such thing as eternal life ( its only life as long as you don't decide to jump out of Jesus' hand ). That puts you in control, and moves God to the back of the bus........ way back. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/27/2008 7:28 pm |
The title makes me think of the song: My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood, and righteous. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but only lean on Jesus name. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. Susan aka Red God gives the very best to those who leave the choices to Him. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine...to Him be the glory. Eph 3:20 Find me at my screen name, blogspot and the usual ending. See ya there! Where I For Everything There is a Season Halloween Pics from Work
| ||||||
8/27/2008 8:21 pm |
The title makes me think of the song: My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood, and righteous. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but only lean on Jesus name. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/27/2008 8:36 pm |
. . .
. In Jesus. If you love me, you will obey my commandments. If you love me, you will feed my sheep. A call to obedience. All subsequent to Salvation. Those who mature in Christ will choose to be obedient. They will surrender all. They will commit. The immature will be all over. Some will choose Godly direction and grow. Others will stay as immature as they are. Then there are those who will act the part and fake it. Perhaps even make a good profit at it, even as a prophet? A prodigal child happens, I have been that prodigal child. If I had died as a prodigal, where would I have ended up? Is suicide the act of a prodigal child, and or rebellion? Is it a loss of faith for what ever reason? So many different questions one can ask as their understanding grows of the knowledge they ingest. But do we live what we understand, what we are called to? To the best of our human ability, confessing all of our sins with a truly repentant heart and contrite spirit? Where does our hope lie? In this, or elsewhere? Know? Yes? ? . . Continue to be faithful, deliverance is near, obedience must be seen, be an unconditional blessing as He continues to bless you. This time is short, serve Him well, serving all. Without exception. Know? Yes? ? .
Meow ? .
.
| ||||||
8/27/2008 9:09 pm |
We walk by faith and not by sight. Thanks for sharing with us all once again before your internet is discontinued....Take care, my friend. Once saved always saved. That is my belief. Of course, that doesn't give me permission to be bad. My conscious tells me when I need to re-adjust my actions. Good post! Sheri The big sign
| ||||||
8/27/2008 9:38 pm |
Steve, How can you say that the writer of Hebrews is not referring to Christians? It is pretty clear when he says "4For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, 5And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, 6If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace." How can you say those described are not Christians? How could they deviate from a faith they do not have? They obviously HAVE come to repentance if they cannot be brought BACK to it. If they have experienced a false salvation, the things said here would not apply. You cannot bear the thought that someone COULD turn away from God after experiencing the reality of God. The thought is a hard one, especially to those of us who have truly experienced the love of God. Yet the warning is clear here: 11But we do [[a]strongly and earnestly] desire for each of you to show the same diligence and sincerity [all the way through] in realizing and enjoying the full assurance and development of [your] hope until the end, 12In order that you may not grow disinterested and become [spiritual] sluggards, but imitators, behaving as do those who through faith (by their leaning of the entire personality on God in Christ in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) and by practice of patient endurance and waiting are [now] inheriting the promises." The caution is essentially for those addressed to press in and GROW UP in God. Unless someone is committed to growing up in God, there is a CHANCE that the refusal to co-operate with Him will lead to a falling away. You can say that this person was never "truly" saved if you like, but you will be contradicting what this scripture clearly teaches. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
| ||||||
8/28/2008 6:21 am |
Amen........... Why so many people want to insist, on adding to what Christ has already done is beyond me. If He ( Christ ) didn't do it all, they sure can't make up for what He didn't do. In other words they had to DO something to make the work of Christ effective in their lives. Or are you suggesting that they would STILL have received forgiveness and the Holy Spirit if they had NOT repented and been baptised? Presumably you would not suggest that Peter "added" to Christ's work by telling these people to do something? The position I and others are taking is no different to Peter. If repentance and baptism makes salvation effective, then surely later disowning that repentance and returning to a life of sin is likely to render it ineffective again. The passage I have quoted from Hebrews 6 would certainly suggest that to be the case. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/28/2008 6:28 am |
Steve, How can you say that the writer of Hebrews is not referring to Christians? It is pretty clear when he says "4For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit, 5And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come, 6If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance--[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace." How can you say those described are not Christians? How could they deviate from a faith they do not have? They obviously HAVE come to repentance if they cannot be brought BACK to it. If they have experienced a false salvation, the things said here would not apply. You cannot bear the thought that someone COULD turn away from God after experiencing the reality of God. The thought is a hard one, especially to those of us who have truly experienced the love of God. Yet the warning is clear here: 11But we do [[a]strongly and earnestly] desire for each of you to show the same diligence and sincerity [all the way through] in realizing and enjoying the full assurance and development of [your] hope until the end, 12In order that you may not grow disinterested and become [spiritual] sluggards, but imitators, behaving as do those who through faith (by their leaning of the entire personality on God in Christ in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) and by practice of patient endurance and waiting are [now] inheriting the promises." The caution is essentially for those addressed to press in and GROW UP in God. Unless someone is committed to growing up in God, there is a CHANCE that the refusal to co-operate with Him will lead to a falling away. You can say that this person was never "truly" saved if you like, but you will be contradicting what this scripture clearly teaches. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/28/2008 4:24 pm |
The title makes me think of the song: My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood, and righteous. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but only lean on Jesus name. On Christ the solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.  - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
8/28/2008 5:05 pm |
Well....well ....well. If it isn't Aslan. I was wondering when you'd show up. Hard head and all. - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
8/28/2008 7:17 pm |
OP wrote: "How can anyone say they have come to know Jesus, as their saviour and Lord. Then say out of the other side of their mouth " BUT ", you can jump out of His Hand and be lost again. If that were true; then there is no such thing as eternal life ( its only life as long as you don't decide to jump out of Jesus' hand ). That puts you in control, and moves God to the back of the bus........ way back. " Man IS in control of his choices. We have ALWAYS been given free choice. God will not make you do anything, not even stay in right relationship with Him. God will see to it that you have your provisions, but He won't MAKE you remain in Him. That doesn't put God to the back of the bus. God will always be God. He might be put to "the back of the bus" in someone's life. Since God cannot change, He will not MAKE you do anything. That is His nature. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/28/2008 7:23 pm |
We walk by faith and not by sight. Thanks for sharing with us all once again before your internet is discontinued....Take care, my friend.Once saved always saved. That is my belief. Of course, that doesn't give me permission to be bad. My conscious tells me when I need to re-adjust my actions. Good post! Sheri God Bless you Steve No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/28/2008 7:31 pm |
Christ certainly did it all, but when the crowd asked Peter "What shall we do?" he said "Repent and be baptised, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" {Acts 2v38}. In other words they had to DO something to make the work of Christ effective in their lives. Or are you suggesting that they would STILL have received forgiveness and the Holy Spirit if they had NOT repented and been baptised? Presumably you would not suggest that Peter "added" to Christ's work by telling these people to do something? The position I and others are taking is no different to Peter. If repentance and baptism makes salvation effective, then surely later disowning that repentance and returning to a life of sin is likely to render it ineffective again. The passage I have quoted from Hebrews 6 would certainly suggest that to be the case. Peter No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/28/2008 7:35 pm |
Aslan......the writer of the Book of Hebrews ( Heb. 6:4-6 ) is describing the impossibility, of anyone who has once embraced the sacrifice of Christ, and tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, tasted the goodness of the word of God; but then turns back, to the weak and beggarly symbols, and images of the Old Covenant ( trusting their works ). They thereby, count Christ's death as worthless( for there is no other sacrifice to be made ), trying to add to what He has already done, and subjecting Him ( Christ ) to open shame. The warning is for all who have rejected Jesus' perfect sacrifice ( Heb. 10:29 ), wherewith He has made perfect FOREVER; those who are being made Holy ( Heb. 10:14 ). To think that you can do something; which can top what has been done by Jesus, is not only ridiculous but also dreadful. " It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. "Heb. 10:31 Its an insult to the Spirit of Grace to deny that Christ Blood has not obtained Eternal Redemption ( once saved, saved eternally ) and that we must work, or decide to remain saved is of our doing. " For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised Eternal inheritance - now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant. " ( Heb. 8:15 ) Did you get that..... " PROMISED ETERNAL INHERITANCE "; if some can fall away, then its not an ETERNAL INHERITANCE. Its an inheritance only good, as long as you do good. That is not the message of Christ, Peter, Paul or James.... its the false message of Satan. Don't be fooled! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/28/2008 7:40 pm |
Awww Steve, don't be hard on Aslan. You know your his favorite blogger! heheheheee!  No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/28/2008 7:58 pm |
godlycook, you challenged me in your previous posts. Let me challenge you. Based on the facts of God's word as presented by those you oppose (and please bear in mind that this is God's word we're speaking of, and God is not double minded that He would say something in His word and not mean it) .....Do you believe that you can walk away from God's salvation if you so choose to? This is the question. It's not a question of whether we feel "safe" in Christ. It's a simple yes or no answer, obviously based on what's written in the bible. Again God's word is ALL true, even the parts you don't like or that don't fit into your theology. Please remember we can't alway wrap our minds around God's truths. And if someone has presented a piece of God's word, we have to accept it as truth. It's not a matter of misrepresenting God's word. It's there for a reason. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/28/2008 8:43 pm |
godlycook, you challenged me in your previous posts. Let me challenge you. Based on the facts of God's word as presented by those you oppose (and please bear in mind that this is God's word we're speaking of, and God is not double minded that He would say something in His word and not mean it) .....Do you believe that you can walk away from God's salvation if you so choose to? This is the question. It's not a question of whether we feel "safe" in Christ. It's a simple yes or no answer, obviously based on what's written in the bible. Again God's word is ALL true, even the parts you don't like or that don't fit into your theology. Please remember we can't alway wrap our minds around God's truths. And if someone has presented a piece of God's word, we have to accept it as truth. It's not a matter of misrepresenting God's word. It's there for a reason. That wasn't so hard was it ? Now you try. How long does ETERNAL LIFE last ? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/28/2008 9:03 pm |
OP wrote: "How can anyone say they have come to know Jesus, as their saviour and Lord. Then say out of the other side of their mouth " BUT ", you can jump out of His Hand and be lost again. If that were true; then there is no such thing as eternal life ( its only life as long as you don't decide to jump out of Jesus' hand ). That puts you in control, and moves God to the back of the bus........ way back. " Man IS in control of his choices. We have ALWAYS been given free choice. God will not make you do anything, not even stay in right relationship with Him. God will see to it that you have your provisions, but He won't MAKE you remain in Him. That doesn't put God to the back of the bus. God will always be God. He might be put to "the back of the bus" in someone's life. Since God cannot change, He will not MAKE you do anything. That is His nature. " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. " John 6:44 Do you understand what the word DRAW means ? I'll tell you. It means to drag by pulling. In the Bible it is used of dragging or hauling fish into a net; or the physical action of dragging people away. Metaphorically, it describes the divine act of God; whereby causing people to come to faith in Christ. Thats what we have in John 6:44. So, no God can't be moved to the back of the bus by anyone. Not even you. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/29/2008 2:50 am |
Pete........read my comment to Aslan. As for your point to longing4more, I agree we would have to be crazy to walk away from God's salvation given that eternal life is promised. In John 6 Jesus asks Peter if he wants to leave when some others do and I believe Peter makes the same point. But I have been there too and I KNOW that I COULD HAVE walked away if I had wanted to. My reason for not doing so is the same one again "Lord, to whom would we go?". But the choice to stick with it was mine and I was not coerced by God in any way. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/29/2008 7:38 am |
Pete........read my comment to Aslan. Steve cannot distinguish between what we do to respond to God's work and "works" as described in Pauls writing. Since he believes that we have no choice or part to play in our own salvation, he naturally concludes that there is no way we could reject God after being saved. It is a consistant position, wrong, but consistant. If Paul warns against falling away, then it is to be considered a real danger. Why warn people against an impossibilty? There is no logic in that at all. Reformed theologians will twist the plain truth until it is no longer plain in the attempt to force it into their little box. btw- good to see you again too, Steve.  We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
| ||||||
8/29/2008 8:14 am |
Pete, Steve cannot distinguish between what we do to respond to God's work and "works" as described in Pauls writing. Since he believes that we have no choice or part to play in our own salvation, he naturally concludes that there is no way we could reject God after being saved. It is a consistant position, wrong, but consistant. If Paul warns against falling away, then it is to be considered a real danger. Why warn people against an impossibilty? There is no logic in that at all. Reformed theologians will twist the plain truth until it is no longer plain in the attempt to force it into their little box. btw- good to see you again too, Steve. Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:37 am |
What Bible are you reading ? Perhaps you missed this. " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. " John 6:44 Do you understand what the word DRAW means ? I'll tell you. It means to drag by pulling. In the Bible it is used of dragging or hauling fish into a net; or the physical action of dragging people away. Metaphorically, it describes the divine act of God; whereby causing people to come to faith in Christ. Thats what we have in John 6:44. So, no God can't be moved to the back of the bus by anyone. Not even you. The verse you refer to is there to correct people from believing that they made the choice, and not God. It`s intended to remove erring pride, that no one should boast. Salvation remains an act of God, but we have to choose Him. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/29/2008 12:30 pm |
Are you kidding me. You say that God "drags" us or "forces" us to come to Him. This is against God's character. If God had His way, we'd all be saved, but He won't take away our right to choose, therefore He has pre-selected a people who will not reject Him. The verse you refer to is there to correct people from believing that they made the choice, and not God. It`s intended to remove erring pride, that no one should boast. Salvation remains an act of God, but we have to choose Him.  - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
8/29/2008 1:05 pm |
Hi, I'm curious as to why you keep arguing with my friend. I know that he's a man with many good qualities. For God's sake, just stop. (By the way...who are you?)  Isn't that what the blogs are about?I don't really know Steve either but I've no reason to doubt your statement that he has many good qualities. I am sure if anyone puts something on his blog that he doesn't want there he knows how to delete it. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/29/2008 1:08 pm |
I don't know who longing4more is any more than you do. But she is perfectly entitled to express her opinion on this blog Isn't that what the blogs are about?I don't really know Steve either but I've no reason to doubt your statement that he has many good qualities. I am sure if anyone puts something on his blog that he doesn't want there he knows how to delete it. Peter - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
8/29/2008 1:22 pm |
Good grief Steve...talk about rage! I apologize for expressing my own opinion...don't want to cause this post any more contention than already exists. I bow out...  - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
8/29/2008 2:21 pm |
Good grief Steve...talk about rage! I apologize for expressing my own opinion...don't want to cause this post any more contention than already exists. I bow out... Nevertheless I apologise to you and Steve if I overreacted with the "angry face". Peace! Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/29/2008 2:35 pm |
I had no problem with you expressing your opinion, but I was a little put out on longing4more's behalf that you seemed to be suggesting she had no right to be doing so. And to be honest even if it is a fake profile {don't know what makes you think that} I don't see why she shouldn't still express an opinion. Nevertheless I apologise to you and Steve if I overreacted with the "angry face". Peace! Peter Sometimes I think I should mind my own business, I stepped over the line, so I'm sorry too. God bless!  - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
8/29/2008 4:30 pm |
Hi, I'm curious as to why you keep arguing with my friend. I know that he's a man with many good qualities. For God's sake, just stop. (By the way...who are you?) I think I have a right to defend my faith and my salvation. What Steve is doing is the equivalent of a curse. He's arguing that we're lost, even being in Christ, because we won't let him win. He's a confessed apologist, and I'm an exhorter. Without all of the gifts, how will the church function. If we do not address erring doctrine, people will be led into error. I'm not the only one defending God's word while Steve insists we disgrace Christ. If we're disgracing Christ by citing God's word, then God himself has disgraced Christ by choosing these teachings in His word. Well "friend to Steve", Steve needs a royal spanking. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/29/2008 4:57 pm |
I had no problem with you expressing your opinion, but I was a little put out on longing4more's behalf that you seemed to be suggesting she had no right to be doing so. And to be honest even if it is a fake profile {don't know what makes you think that} I don't see why she shouldn't still express an opinion. Nevertheless I apologise to you and Steve if I overreacted with the "angry face". Peace! Peter I don't know what people call a fake profile. If I'm typing, I guess I'm a real person. My faith is real, and I speak God's truths. To Steve's friend, now I feel bad that I responded to your post as I did, since things seemed to tame down after that. Nevertheless, we all have our gifts and responsibilities. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/29/2008 5:59 pm |
Americandreamer: Thanks for taking the time to search for what I knew was there. I'm apparently a little rusty in my bible studies, and my concordance is buried under something. I wish to quote your findings, the basis on which I speak my beliefs: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26-27 My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:04 pm |
I'm sorry Steve but I don't accept your interpretation of the Hebrews passages. Chapter 6 talks about 'falling away' i.e. apostasy, a complete rejection and disowning of the faith of Christ and Chapter 10 refers to persistent sin. There is no reference to trusting in works in either chapter and I am afraid you are reading your own beliefs into the scripture. As for your point to longing4more, I agree we would have to be crazy to walk away from God's salvation given that eternal life is promised. In John 6 Jesus asks Peter if he wants to leave when some others do and I believe Peter makes the same point. But I have been there too and I KNOW that I COULD HAVE walked away if I had wanted to. My reason for not doing so is the same one again "Lord, to whom would we go?". But the choice to stick with it was mine and I was not coerced by God in any way. Peter Something which you said on your post on predestination; helped me understand why you hold, to the view you do concerning ETERNAL LIFE. You actually believe that ETERNAL LIFE is a future state. You referred to Mk 10:30 for support. I explained what John said ( 1 John 5:13 ) concerning ETERNAL LIFE, and you shifted from ETERNAL LIFE to stop believing. You say God promises to see us through to the end, then you add the infamous " But ", and you call that balance. I explained clearly what John's phrase " YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ", means. This is what I said: " is John contradicting Jesus' statement ? No. But He is clarifying it. According to John believers have ( present indicative mood ) ETERNAL LIFE, not a period of time; but rather as an unending relationship ( sharing God's quality of life ) hence unending. " ETERNAL LIFE is not a future occurrence ( pie in the sky ) which Christians wish for. We already possess it ( God actually possesses us ). When we believed, we were marked with a seal, and the Holy Spirit is the deposit; guaranteeing our inheritance ( Eph. 1: 13-14 ). God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in heaven. In God's sight the believer is already in heaven. You however what to add balance by saying " BUT " No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:17 pm |
Are you kidding me. You say that God "drags" us or "forces" us to come to Him. This is against God's character. If God had His way, we'd all be saved, but He won't take away our right to choose, therefore He has pre-selected a people who will not reject Him. The verse you refer to is there to correct people from believing that they made the choice, and not God. It`s intended to remove erring pride, that no one should boast. Salvation remains an act of God, but we have to choose Him. " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. " John 6:44 You can look the word " Draw " up in any decent English dictionary, and you'll see that one of the uses means " to drag by pulling " And you still haven't answered my question. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:29 pm |
Pete, Steve cannot distinguish between what we do to respond to God's work and "works" as described in Pauls writing. Since he believes that we have no choice or part to play in our own salvation, he naturally concludes that there is no way we could reject God after being saved. It is a consistant position, wrong, but consistant. If Paul warns against falling away, then it is to be considered a real danger. Why warn people against an impossibilty? There is no logic in that at all. Reformed theologians will twist the plain truth until it is no longer plain in the attempt to force it into their little box. btw- good to see you again too, Steve. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:32 pm |
Good grief Steve...talk about rage! I apologize for expressing my own opinion...don't want to cause this post any more contention than already exists. I bow out... No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:40 pm |
Seems Steve (godlycook) attacked me right from the get-go when I simply gave counsel to someone about how you can know you're saved. Your friend Steve (godlycook) has been attacking me ever since, with false accusations and twisting my words, accusing me of defaming Christ, and trying to invalidate my salvation. I think I have a right to defend my faith and my salvation. What Steve is doing is the equivalent of a curse. He's arguing that we're lost, even being in Christ, because we won't let him win. He's a confessed apologist, and I'm an exhorter. Without all of the gifts, how will the church function. If we do not address erring doctrine, people will be led into error. I'm not the only one defending God's word while Steve insists we disgrace Christ. If we're disgracing Christ by citing God's word, then God himself has disgraced Christ by choosing these teachings in His word. Well "friend to Steve", Steve needs a royal spanking. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/29/2008 9:43 pm |
The reason I posted this question, was to reveal to people where their hope really lies. Will it work ? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/30/2008 2:21 am |
Pete ........ its not so much an interpretation; as it is a comprehensive description; of what the text actually says. As a result of much prayer, and the illumination of the Spirit. I have come to understand Grace. Even if you own a good study Bible, a good Bible commentary or Bible dictionary, you will find the same truths. Something which you said on your post on predestination; helped me understand why you hold, to the view you do concerning ETERNAL LIFE. You actually believe that ETERNAL LIFE is a future state. You referred to Mk 10:30 for support. I explained what John said ( 1 John 5:13 ) concerning ETERNAL LIFE, and you shifted from ETERNAL LIFE to stop believing. You say God promises to see us through to the end, then you add the infamous " But ", and you call that balance. I explained clearly what John's phrase " YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE ", means. This is what I said: " is John contradicting Jesus' statement ? No. But He is clarifying it. According to John believers have ( present indicative mood ) ETERNAL LIFE, not a period of time; but rather as an unending relationship ( sharing God's quality of life ) hence unending. " ETERNAL LIFE is not a future occurrence ( pie in the sky ) which Christians wish for. We already possess it ( God actually possesses us ). When we believed, we were marked with a seal, and the Holy Spirit is the deposit; guaranteeing our inheritance ( Eph. 1: 13-14 ). God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in heaven. In God's sight the believer is already in heaven. You however what to add balance by saying " BUT " "A state of being in a permanent living relationship with God, through Jesus Christ, begun in this life and consummated at the resurrection of believers" It quotes many scriptures in support of these various descriptions. I particularly like the last one because it illustrates perfectly the idea that in this life we are merely "bethrothed" or "engaged" to Jesus, which is a different quality of life to being single. However, to complete the illustration, at the resurrection we will be "married" to Jesus which fits into the idea of the church being the "bride of Christ". Of course it is possible to break off an engagement before the marriage, and who will be accepted back after that? Yes this paragraph is just my illustration but I think it makes the point. As I have said somewhere I believe the Bible to be a "perfect balance of complementary truths". I believe predestination and free will to be one pair of complementary truths. Jesus being 100% God and 100% man is another such pair - probably the best known and certainly the most important. Steve I don't wish to argue with you for evermore {pun intended } about this eternal life issue, so I will not trouble you on this post with any further comment. I can see you are not in agreement with me and fully respect your viewpoint. But we can remain as brothers in the Lord despite our differences so every blessing to you.Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/30/2008 4:19 am |
Hi, I'm curious as to why you keep arguing with my friend. I know that he's a man with many good qualities. For God's sake, just stop. (By the way...who are you?) No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/30/2008 4:35 am |
I didn't slam you, and I didn't attack you. I corrected you, and you didn't like it. And you still didn't answer my question, even after I answered yours. I suppose you think thats fair ? My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
| ||||||
8/30/2008 5:19 am |
Pete......I have had friends who believed the same way that you do. As much as I tried, and as many scriptures as I shared with them; they couldn't see it ( the truth about not being able to lose their salvation ). I didn't give up on them and I'm not giving up on you. They did finally come to the realization, that they couldn't lose their salvation. It usually happened when I wasn't around them, but when they were alone ( with God ); and reading their Bible. God used some of the oddest verses, to enlighten them of His truth ( verses that I hadn't even mentioned ) and verses from the Old Testament. After God revealed the truth of His unending ( and unchangeable ) love for them, they began to preach it at the churches; they had been attending for years, they were rejected of course and asked to leave; or left because they no longer agreed with that view ( that once saved we could lose our salvation ). Once God revealed this truth to them some of them became very angry, because they had been lied to by their pastor. I told them that they shouldn't be angry with their former pastor; because they only had themselves to blame. They wouldn't accept the truth, I was trying to share with them because they were trusting the pastor to tell the truth. All pastors aren't telling the truth ( or don't understand the truth themselves ). You shared what your study Bible says about the word ETERNAL, you wrote: " My study Bible describes eternal life as BOTH "infinitely extended life" AND "a unique quality of life". It also has this definition: "A state of being in a permanent living relationship with God, through Jesus Christ, begun in this life and consummated at the resurrection of believers" " Thats practically what I said, when I explained 1 John 5:13. Then you tried to explain it away, with a poor explanation of an engagement that could be broken, without realizing you are breaking Jesus' heart; by not believing His promise made to His bride, by stating the engagement can be broken, as if we can through the ring back in Jesus' face. We are already His Bride, its a done deal..........and you continue with the " But " You should pay closer attention to your study Bible, it described the word ETRNAL correctly. " who has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done BUT because of his own purpose and grace. this grace was given to us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. "2Tim. 1:9 Thats the only way you use the word " but " No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
| ||||||
8/30/2008 6:50 am |
Steve, a final final word from me: I think my study Bible described MY version! But thanks for the comment and the advice - if it happens to me I'll be sure to let you know! Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
| ||||||
8/30/2008 10:24 am |
Americandreamer: Thanks for taking the time to search for what I knew was there. I'm apparently a little rusty in my bible studies, and my concordance is buried under something. I wish to quote your findings, the basis on which I speak my beliefs: "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26-27 I want to thank you for getting me into the Study Bible tonight. The scripture you referred to was actually a warning to Jewish Christians who were tempted to reject Christ for Judaism; but it applies to anyone who turns his or her back on Him. And if a person does something like that after having understood His sacrifice, then there's no way they were saved in the first place! "For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." Hebrews 10:26-27 When I first read your comment, I thought of the following scripture. Again, it refers to those who reject the living Christ Jesus: "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation." Mark 3:28-29 God is forgiving when we repent; however, if we defiantly sin His judgment can be severe! "But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him." Numbers 15:30-31 Just as a shepherd should, Jesus protects his people from eternal harm; even though as believers we're in the devil's domain, He offers everlasting safety. "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28-29  - Pat -God's Freebies !! Please pray for my kitty Blackness. My sister called me last night.
| ||||||
