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 | Blogs > godlycook > WHAT IS MAN'S CHIEF END ? > REGENERATION AND O.T. SAINTS |
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Last Read: |
No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7 |
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5/31/2008 11:19 pm |
You got me on that one Steve, I have aften wondered that myself, my answer is prophets and men of God. Gods way is my way,...Clay
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 6/1/2008 2:08 am |
I don't recall the phrase "regeneration" being used of anyone in the OT, but in Hebrews there is a long list of those who demonstrated faith. Hebrews 11 v 13 says: "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance" So obviously their experience was not fully the same as we have today, but to live by faith is not possible unless God changes us inside, and that is probably what we call regeneration. I guess I can't be dogmatic but I think they were regenerated. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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6/1/2008 3:15 am |
No. They didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them, but the Spirit was WITH or UPON them. I think "this position" should be granted more emphasis! Except for John the Baptist, that was filled with the HS before birth, I can't recall anyone before Jesus made this possible!! The entire OT points to the "Man of Galilea". I've NOT invented this, ya know??
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6/1/2008 3:23 am |
Since God is the CREATOR He is the only one that can make something out of nothing, and that never changes. The 7th day Sabbath and the keeping of it was the sign that His people realized that God alone, being the Creator, was creator of a clean heart within. Ezek:20:12: Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them. Ps:51:10: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Walking_man explained this to you once!
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6/1/2008 8:03 am |
You got me on that one Steve, I have aften wondered that myself, my answer is prophets and men of God. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/1/2008 8:43 am |
I don't recall the phrase "regeneration" being used of anyone in the OT, but in Hebrews there is a long list of those who demonstrated faith. Hebrews 11 v 13 says: "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance" So obviously their experience was not fully the same as we have today, but to live by faith is not possible unless God changes us inside, and that is probably what we call regeneration. I guess I can't be dogmatic but I think they were regenerated. Peter No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/1/2008 8:50 am |
No. They didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them, but the Spirit was WITH or UPON them. I think "this position" should be granted more emphasis! Except for John the Baptist, that was filled with the HS before birth, I can't recall anyone before Jesus made this possible!! The entire OT points to the "Man of Galilea". I've NOT invented this, ya know?? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/1/2008 8:51 am |
You are obsessed with this Sabbath!!! Jesus broke the Sabbath several times!!! If you were one of the Pharisees, you would undoubtedly have comdemned him too! Walking_man explained this to you once! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/1/2008 11:06 am |
Hey Peter....... the term " regeneration " of the N.T. is related to the word " revive " in the O.T., both convey the idea of making alive. The term circumcision of the heart is also related to " regeneration ", the need for renewal. The promise spoken of in Heb. 11;13 refers to the promise spoken to the patriarchs Abraham ( and which passed onto Isaac, and Jacob ), Enoch did not die. Abraham and others lived in the land but did not possess it, but believed the promise. Thanks for your response. Peter  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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6/1/2008 2:46 pm |
No. They didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them, but the Spirit was WITH or UPON them. I think "this position" should be granted more emphasis! Except for John the Baptist, that was filled with the HS before birth, I can't recall anyone before Jesus made this possible!! The entire OT points to the "Man of Galilea". I've NOT invented this, ya know?? Luk 1:41 And it came to pass,that,when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary,the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost,and prophesied, saying, Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;for he hath visited and redeemed his people I am not trying to start trouble here just curious to know that's all
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6/2/2008 2:37 pm |
If they didn't have the HOLY SPIRIT in them then please explain this to me: Luk 1:41 And it came to pass,that,when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary,the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost,and prophesied, saying, Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;for he hath visited and redeemed his people I am not trying to start trouble here just curious to know that's all Oh right, mommy and daddy too, but not from their mother's womb as John! In the same context, also Mary must have been filled with the Spirit to say the things she said! Of course the term "filled by God's Spirit/Holy Ghost" is also used to indicate a prophet! But here it's the Messianic message that has been clearly revealed! Or else God's Spirit has been on earth since the beginning, Gen. 1:2, and "worked" through his Saints and "led" them in a way or another. (2. Pet. 1:21 says... but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost) But it could not be the other Comforter, Jesus said his Father would send in his name - the Spirit of truth - who would be with his people forever. (John 14:16-17) ... For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you...(John 16 : 7 f) For the Spirit was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:39) The Spirit couldn't be poured out/shed as in Acts 2:16f (=Joel 3:1f other versions), before Jesus had first been degraded (Gal. 3:13,14) and exalted at the right of the Father: "Therefore being by the right hand of the God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he had shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33, the day of Pentecost) Well, I think godlycook clarified it in his previous comment! We that have been discussing this earlier, know where one is coming from. Therefore I voted for #1: No...... they found grace with God; but not the same as we have today. What have you voted?
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6/2/2008 7:11 pm |
_____ Oh right, mommy and daddy too, but not from their mother's womb as John! In the same context, also Mary must have been filled with the Spirit to say the things she said! Of course the term "filled by God's Spirit/Holy Ghost" is also used to indicate a prophet! But here it's the Messianic message that has been clearly revealed! Or else God's Spirit has been on earth since the beginning, Gen. 1:2, and "worked" through his Saints and "led" them in a way or another. (2. Pet. 1:21 says... but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost) But it could not be the other Comforter, Jesus said his Father would send in his name - the Spirit of truth - who would be with his people forever. (John 14:16-17) ... For if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you...(John 16 : 7 f) For the Spirit was not yet given, because that Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:39) The Spirit couldn't be poured out/shed as in Acts 2:16f (=Joel 3:1f other versions), before Jesus had first been degraded (Gal. 3:13,14) and exalted at the right of the Father: "Therefore being by the right hand of the God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he had shed forth this, which ye now see and hear." (Acts 2:33, the day of Pentecost) Well, I think godlycook clarified it in his previous comment! We that have been discussing this earlier, know where one is coming from. Therefore I voted for #1: No...... they found grace with God; but not the same as we have today. What have you voted? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/3/2008 3:06 am |
And.........if you voted for number 1........you're wrong. I can live with that! But still I consider "fair" the factor of "individuality" and the "process" of regeneration "over time", NOT an "instant act" as your position alludes to. The second part of #1 was "but not the same as we have today". "We" today have to focus on the Holy Spirit that Jesus received and can baptize us with. And therefore the conditions of this new covenant are completely different from the OT. The only way to understand this better (or try to understand it) is to let go of the inflexible and rigid "election doctrine" and "once saved always saved" proclamation. Redemption in Christ and the Grace of God is now "extended" and "offered" to ALL humanity EVEN IF not every one will accept it. This is the True Gospel! Glory to God!! Amen!
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6/3/2008 7:14 pm |
In your earlier comment you wrote "you'd have to look at every occurrence, of the Spirit's activity in the O.T. before making such a statement." I can live with that! But still I consider "fair" the factor of "individuality" and the "process" of regeneration "over time", NOT an "instant act" as your position alludes to. The second part of #1 was "but not the same as we have today". "We" today have to focus on the Holy Spirit that Jesus received and can baptize us with. And therefore the conditions of this new covenant are completely different from the OT. The only way to understand this better (or try to understand it) is to let go of the inflexible and rigid "election doctrine" and "once saved always saved" proclamation. Redemption in Christ and the Grace of God is now "extended" and "offered" to ALL humanity EVEN IF not every one will accept it. This is the True Gospel! Glory to God!! Amen! So, now I can say with the Apostle Paul...." I have been crucified with Christ....", and understand; that all believers who have ever been born, or will be born can lay claim to being crucified with Him. There has always only been one way.......Christ. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/3/2008 7:20 pm |
Thanks Steve. I'm not a Greek or Hebrew expert so that info on "regeneration" and "revive" is very helpful. Judging from your response to Bristerbate I take it your answer is that SOME of them were regenerated but not others - am I right? Peter No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/4/2008 5:49 am |
Thanks Steve. I'm not a Greek or Hebrew expert so that info on "regeneration" and "revive" is very helpful. Judging from your response to Bristerbate I take it your answer is that SOME of them were regenerated but not others - am I right? Peter No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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6/5/2008 11:11 pm |
So what was the point of all this, just to show that I was correct without ever saying it? Boy that is sad! We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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6/6/2008 3:24 am |
What's our "duty" today! Let's be humble and worthy of His blessing!! ---> + + + ENGAGED AND SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT WITH A RING ??? + + +
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6/6/2008 8:07 am |
So what was the point of all this, just to show that I was correct without ever saying it? Boy that is sad! On my previous post " Reconciling Scripture " I stated that regeneration is necessary before the natural man will believe. You were having a problem ( and still do ) with that fact, as you continued to argue that man is capable of believing without the need of being regenerated ( or born again ) first. When I pointed out the fact that even the O.T. saints had to be regenerated as well, you went on a rant trying to prove I was wrong. At one point you said this: " As for Abraham, show some direct evidence that Abraham was born again. Chapter and verse please. You are engauging in a circular argument. Abraham must have been regenerated because he believed. Since one cannot (according to you) believe without first having been regenerated, the statement that Abraham believed is sufficient to show that he was regenerated. If faith is imposed, it is not faith. One must choose to believe over not believing for it to be faith at all. Then at another point you said this: " So now I'm supposed to go in search of an idea in the bible that isn't actually stated? Sounds like one that has been inferred through a doctrinal framework that this is itself flawed. I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit was active all through the OT, but you said that the OT saints were "born again". I challenged you to prove it with scripture and you have failed to do that. Some teacher. Which I had not. And lets not forget this one: " I quote here your post from earlier where you say that Abraham had to be regenerated before believing. Is there a substantive difference between that and "born again"? Perhaps you should read your own posts more closely. You are the guy who loves to tell me that I'm not paying attention, tre ironic, no? " After going back and forth, and after I pointed out your U Turn; you saw that you made a blunder, and tried to down shift, your point as though you understood all along. When you said this: " So the answer to my question, is there a substantive difference between that (regeneration) and "born again?" is NO. " First you argue that I was wrong about the O.T. saints need for being regenerated ( or born again ), then you must have realized that you screwed up and that you weren't on the same page ( with me ) and came around to admitting what I was saying all along. That there is no difference between the way O.T. saints ( were saved ) and N.T. saints are saved. Its known as quickening......or making alive aka regeneration= being born again. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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