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 | Blogs > godlycook > WHAT IS MAN'S CHIEF END ? > RECONCILING SCRIPTURE |
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godlycook
4/16/2008 8:31 pmLast Read: |
Its important that with any study of Scripture, we should learn to reconcile passages; that may appear to be in opposition to each other. Its easy to lineup a string of verses, in an attempt to prove a particular notion; such as insisting that Christians must keep the Law, and then quoting the Ten Commandments. While not being able to reconcile; those passages which clearly teach, that the believer has been freed from the Law. Whenever this approach is used, you end up running into problems, trying to reconcile scripture as having unity of thought. What some do, in order to try and get around; or escape the problem, is say something like " The Bible teaches both ideas. " There are times, when some people actually ignore certain passages, altogether because they can't, explain why there appears to be a contradiction of thought. Others will insist, when they are confronted by certain passages, that the person who brings their attention, to such passages; is twisting the text. Rather than take an objective look at the text in question, they'll start squirming, and wiggling because they don't have an answer; while accusing others of not understanding the Bible. One thing that is helpful, in being able reconcile such passages, is to realize that the Bible never teaches two opposing ideas. For example, many here believe, that Christians can loose their salvation. If I quote what Jesus said about giving His sheep eternal life, and that His sheep will never perish. Someone will inevitably refer to a verse that talks about what happens to unbelievers, and apply that to the sheep. Not realizing that the two passages in question are talking about two different kinds of people. This can easily be seen with the misunderstanding of keeping the law ( or several other types of commands ). The mistake often made, is to assume that because God commands something, that man must be able to do it; or else why would God command us to do it ? I've shared this example before, and I'll gladly share it again. In the Book of Duet, God commands Israel, to circumcise their hearts. " Therefore circumcise the foreskin of your heart, and be stiff-necked no longer. "Duet. 10:16 Here we have a command which clearly no one in all of Israel could perform, yet there it is. How did the LORD expect anyone to be able to perform this task ? If given a knife would they even know where to begin cutting ? Yet some would insist that since God commanded it; the Jews must have been able to perform it. In His grace God made a way to fulfill this command for Israel, and He promised to undertake the task all by Himself. " And the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live. "Duet. 30:6 Now, if you ignore the second reference in order to prove that man is capable of freely doing what God commands, then you do an injustice to the doctrine of grace. One text doesn't cancel out the other; but one text explains how the other is accomplished. This is how scripture is reconciled, one verse shows the command; while the other explains how the command is carried out ( or fulfilled ). Scripture always explains itself ( if we don't try to force a different meaning onto it ). This can also be seen in the teachings of Christ concerning those who come to Him. " Then Jesus declared, " I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. " John 6:35 Jesus was speaking to people who were disciples, yet who had not truly believed. As He continued to teach these people they became offended, and began to murmur; at what He was teaching. Then jesus says something odd. " Stop murmuring among yourselves," Jesus answered. " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. " John 6:43-44 Here again, if you ignore the second reference in hopes of proving that man is capable of freely coming to Christ, then you again do an injustice to the grace of God. The first text isn't proving that man is capable of freely coming to Christ, anymore than with the command for Israel to circumcise their heart, proves they could do it. Jesus gives the command to come, as well as explain how we are given the ability to come to Him. Thats how to reconcile scripture. Give Him the glory.....He alone is due it. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7 |
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 4/16/2008 9:55 pm |
Even a cursory examination of the passage from Deuteronomy shows that the portion you quote is figurative language. The immediate context of the chapter reveals that those spoken to are informed precisely how to do what is being asked of them. just prior: 12 And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the LORD's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? And just after: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. 18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. 20 Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. So where exactly is the problem in understanding the Lord's meaning? This is a problem that only arises if the passage is taken out of context in just the way you have done. I agree that scripture explains itself. It usually does it much better if not taken out of context. In your second passage, verse 45(once again immediate context)says this: 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. Jesus explains further that there is a response required of those who would come to him. Those who come to him must listen to the Father and learn from him. Did you notice that he also shows us that belief is required for everlasting life? I for one believe that the Father is calling people to Jesus all the time. Only those who listen actually come to Jesus. As the lord himself says here. Sorry if it upsets you that I point out what the scripture actually says , but the responsibilty of man to respond to the call of God is everywhere in scripture. You see it best when you take everything in context. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/17/2008 6:22 am |
Upset me, you've got a long way to go before you'd upset me. Heck, I wasn't even disappointed, you did just what I expected you to do. When I return from work, I'll explain the principle of " Progressive Mention " for you. You obviously don't understand, how you just put your foot in your mouth.....Big Time. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/17/2008 7:23 am |
Upset me, you've got a long way to go before you'd upset me. Heck, I wasn't even disappointed, you did just what I expected you to do. When I return from work, I'll explain the principle of " Progressive Mention " for you. You obviously don't understand, how you just put your foot in your mouth.....Big Time.  Or something like that! We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/17/2008 10:24 am |
Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! It washes white as snow. What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! It washes white as snow. What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/17/2008 5:21 pm |
Well if your "correction is anything like your argument on Tropical Man's blog I'm shaking in my boots...... Or something like that! I said that I would explain the principle of " Progressive Mention " for you, apparently you are unaware of how important it is, in helping to come a proper understanding of God's Word, just as much as context. The " Progressive Mention Principle " is defined as the principle by which God makes the revelation of any given truth increasingly clearer, as that TRUTH proceeds to its conclusion. This is different from the " Full Mention Principle ", where God declares His full mind on any subject ( or doctrine ) all at once. You stated that even a superficial examination, of the text in Duet. 10:16 reveals that the passage uses figurative language. And your point is ? Thats part of your problem; you think that because figurative language is being used; that the text is somehow worthless. We can't ignore a truth; because it may use figurative language. For example, Jesus uses figurative speech when referring to Himself; as such things as The Door, and The Gate. Yet none of these figures diminishes the fact; that Jesus is the only way to to the Father. To properly understand the significance, of how the word circumcise ( Hebrew mul ) is used; we must follow it progressively, in both the O.T. and the N.T., to fully understand the concept of circumcision. The command for the physical act of circumcision is first seen in Gen. 17:10, all males had to be circumcised in their flesh when they were 8 days old. This was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, which I'm sure you are familiar with. But as we study scripture, God begins to progressively reveal, that physical circumcision, would be replaced by a heart circumcision. This heart circumcision is necessary, to be in right relationship with God. It is this circumcision of the heart, that God declares is part of the New Covenant; which He will perform. Heart circumcision is a very real requirement, before anyone can stand forgiven before the LORD. In the Book of Jeremiah starting with verse 31, the LORD declares that He would make a new covenant with the house of Israel, because they had broken His covenant ( even though they declared they could keep it ), by not keeping His Law. " This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. " I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ' Know the LORD, ' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, " declares the LORD, " For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. " Jer. 31:33-34 Here again, the Lord is speaking of what He will do ( not what we can do ); to our inner man, by changing our hearts, and not only are we changed, so that we truly know God, but all of our sins are forgiven and remembered no more. But this isn't the end of the idea of the inward circumcision, because the Word progressively makes this teaching clearer, as we study. I don't have the time to go into every nuance, of every text; of this important doctrine, so I'm going to skip over some things and go to the N.T. In the N.T. Jesus follows up on this need to be changed, on the inside when He explains to Nicodemus, the importance of being Born Again. This is a direct correlation to the idea of the circumcision of the heart given in the O.T., which God Himself must do. The flesh counts for nothing, it is the Spirit who gives life. Paul also explains the necessity of the inward circumcision ( changed heart ) and in the Book of Romans says: " A man is not a jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but form God. " Do you want to make this text figurative also ? In keeping with the progression of this subject, of the necessity of the circumcision of the heart ( which we can't do ), the contrast being made to the text I referred from Duet. 10:16, is consistently referring to a change that is done by God, for man can no more circumcise his own heart, than fly. Paul also warns us of the mutilators of the flesh ( those who put their trust in the flesh ), and refers to believers as the circumcision. " Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. "Phil. 3:2 -3 You can't come to this understanding, with a quick study. It takes much more time than most are willing to spend with Gods Word; and time of prayer for the understanding we all need. As Paul says, such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Those of us who have received a circumcised heart, do not need the praise of men. For our praise comes from God. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/17/2008 5:48 pm |
2Th 2:8-15 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/17/2008 6:42 pm |
Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! It washes white as snow. What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! Oh, the blood of Jesus! It washes white as snow. What can wash away my sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/17/2008 8:16 pm |
Really..........you will only shake in your boots, when you stand before God, to give an account. In the meantime you'll just continue to make a fool of yourself. I said that I would explain the principle of " Progressive Mention " for you, apparently you are unaware of how important it is, in helping to come a proper understanding of God's Word, just as much as context. The " Progressive Mention Principle " is defined as the principle by which God makes the revelation of any given truth increasingly clearer, as that TRUTH proceeds to its conclusion. This is different from the " Full Mention Principle ", where God declares His full mind on any subject ( or doctrine ) all at once. You stated that even a superficial examination, of the text in Duet. 10:16 reveals that the passage uses figurative language. And your point is ? Thats part of your problem; you think that because figurative language is being used; that the text is somehow worthless. We can't ignore a truth; because it may use figurative language. For example, Jesus uses figurative speech when referring to Himself; as such things as The Door, and The Gate. Yet none of these figures diminishes the fact; that Jesus is the only way to to the Father. To properly understand the significance, of how the word circumcise ( Hebrew mul ) is used; we must follow it progressively, in both the O.T. and the N.T., to fully understand the concept of circumcision. The command for the physical act of circumcision is first seen in Gen. 17:10, all males had to be circumcised in their flesh when they were 8 days old. This was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, which I'm sure you are familiar with. But as we study scripture, God begins to progressively reveal, that physical circumcision, would be replaced by a heart circumcision. This heart circumcision is necessary, to be in right relationship with God. It is this circumcision of the heart, that God declares is part of the New Covenant; which He will perform. Heart circumcision is a very real requirement, before anyone can stand forgiven before the LORD. In the Book of Jeremiah starting with verse 31, the LORD declares that He would make a new covenant with the house of Israel, because they had broken His covenant ( even though they declared they could keep it ), by not keeping His Law. " This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. " I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ' Know the LORD, ' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, " declares the LORD, " For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more. " Jer. 31:33-34 Here again, the Lord is speaking of what He will do ( not what we can do ); to our inner man, by changing our hearts, and not only are we changed, so that we truly know God, but all of our sins are forgiven and remembered no more. But this isn't the end of the idea of the inward circumcision, because the Word progressively makes this teaching clearer, as we study. I don't have the time to go into every nuance, of every text; of this important doctrine, so I'm going to skip over some things and go to the N.T. In the N.T. Jesus follows up on this need to be changed, on the inside when He explains to Nicodemus, the importance of being Born Again. This is a direct correlation to the idea of the circumcision of the heart given in the O.T., which God Himself must do. The flesh counts for nothing, it is the Spirit who gives life. Paul also explains the necessity of the inward circumcision ( changed heart ) and in the Book of Romans says: " A man is not a jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but form God. " Do you want to make this text figurative also ? In keeping with the progression of this subject, of the necessity of the circumcision of the heart ( which we can't do ), the contrast being made to the text I referred from Duet. 10:16, is consistently referring to a change that is done by God, for man can no more circumcise his own heart, than fly. Paul also warns us of the mutilators of the flesh ( those who put their trust in the flesh ), and refers to believers as the circumcision. " Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. "Phil. 3:2 -3 You can't come to this understanding, with a quick study. It takes much more time than most are willing to spend with Gods Word; and time of prayer for the understanding we all need. As Paul says, such a man's praise is not from men, but from God. Those of us who have received a circumcised heart, do not need the praise of men. For our praise comes from God. very impressive trap set for me to fall into, but it didn't work. For one thing I responded to what you said, not what you meant to say. Lets take some of your points here shall we? quoting you: 1. "You stated that even a superficial examination, of the text in Duet. 10:16 reveals that the passage uses figurative language. And your point is ?" I explained my point, you do read all of the posts don't you? I'll do it again since you apparently need review. You made a big deal about how people reading the scripture would not understand how someone could carry out such a drastic command as "circumcise the foreskin of your heart." In addition to the impossiblity of performing a task like that on oneself, there is the medical reality that the heart doesn't have a foreskin. Even the time the scripture was written, people would have known that, right? Anyone who wondered about the meaning of such a command would naturally look for clues within the immediate context first. I hope we can agree on that. I provided the clues that the context provides to answer the question as to what the command could mean. verse 12 12 And now, O Israel, what does the LORD your God ask of you but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to observe the LORD's commands and decrees that I am giving you today for your own good? No doubt even those of moderate intelligence would see the connection with the repetition of the word heart at the very least. and verse 17: 17 For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. 18 He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. 19 And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt. 20 Fear the LORD your God and serve him. Hold fast to him and take your oaths in his name. We see here further instruction on practical things to do to fulfill the command God gave. There is no real mystery. 2.quoting you: Thats part of your problem; you think that because figurative language is being used; that the text is somehow worthless. Show me in my post where I said that because figurative language was used that the text was "worthless". My assertion was that the text was not as mysterious or hard to understand as you claimed. I never in any way suggested that it was without value. That is your addition and distortion of what I said. I am used to this sort of thing from the "reformed" posters here, but I can't help but be disappointed by that sort of intellectual dishonesty. I think you are better than that. I have no problem with the use of figurative language, I rather applaud the use of poetic language, whether it is the Lord himself speaking, like here, or an inspired King David: Keep me as the apple of the eye, hide me under the shadow of thy wings, Psalm 17:8 When I read that, I don't immediately start wondering if God actually has wings or not. I see it as a visual image that expresses a spiritual truth. From a purely aesthetic point of view, I like the image of God hiding me under His wings better than the image of my heart with a foreskin. But I don't for one moment dismiss the truth resident in either image. 3.quoting you: We can't ignore a truth; because it may use figurative language. For example, Jesus uses figurative speech when referring to Himself; as such things as The Door, and The Gate. Yet none of these figures diminishes the fact; that Jesus is the only way to to the Father. No truth ignored here. As I said, I rather like the use of figuative language, because it goes so far to commmunicating the truth He wishes to impart. If this thread was put up just to lure me or anyone into a debate over the doctrines of "reformed" beliefs, it has failed to make its point. It is awkward and ham handed in it execution. It fails to prove the point it sets out to prove. But I'm sure with practice you will improve, keep trying We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/17/2008 8:17 pm |
Aslan17 Thats nice, but why dont you agree with Gods word...that he has chosen his elect to salvation? You chuck out the truth because you dont like it. Why ?.....man wants to be his own God....just tag the name Jesus on to it to make it seem like truth...alas it is not though. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/17/2008 8:26 pm |
Aslan17 Thats nice, but why dont you agree with Gods word...that he has chosen his elect to salvation? You chuck out the truth because you dont like it. Why ?.....man wants to be his own God....just tag the name Jesus on to it to make it seem like truth...alas it is not though. How have I disagreed with God's Word? Why should anyone give anything you say any credibilty? You consistently misrepresent what I say. Even when I document your errors and falshoods, you persist in them. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/17/2008 8:46 pm |
Jeff.......why do you keep trying to prove; that man has the ability to do whatever God commands ? You have to be blind in one eye, and unable to see with the other, to keep up with that delusion. You completely missed the fact, of the reason why we need to have our hearts changed, and we can't do it. You are willing to contradict God; who gave the command to " circumcise the foreskin of your heart ", by talking about the medical reality that the heart has no foreskin. You can't be serious.........I guess you could. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/17/2008 9:08 pm |
Jeff.......why do you keep trying to prove; that man has the ability to do whatever God commands ? You have to be blind in one eye, and unable to see with the other, to keep up with that delusion. You completely missed the fact, of the reason why we need to have our hearts changed, and we can't do it. You are willing to contradict God; who gave the command to " circumcise the foreskin of your heart ", by talking about the medical reality that the heart has no foreskin. You can't be serious.........I guess you could. You say such outrageously false things, I'm beginning to think you are trying to emulate sweethoney's style of borish mendacity. You say I'm "willing to contradict" God. Where have I contradicted God? I have disputed with YOU. Are you calling yourself God? I brought up the fact of the medical reality that the heart has no foreskin to make the point that anyone who read the scripture would know that no real physical action was being called for. Rather, as I expalined twice now the reader (ancient or modern) would look for and find explanation in the context of the passage. Show me how this is a contradiction of anything other than your claim that the passage is hard to understand. Are you really so arrogant AND obtuse? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/18/2008 3:19 am |
Jesus please open Steve and Sweet Honeys eyes to truth that they can be delivered from mans execution of your word.
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4/18/2008 10:05 am |
Lord, please show these unbelievers that your word says that you are the author of salvtion and not them! John 6: 64,65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/18/2008 10:06 am |
Lord, please show these unbelievers that your word says that you are the author of salvation and not them! John 6: 64,65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/18/2008 10:08 am |
Aslan, you ignore all the scriptures that I show you. 2 Thess 2:16 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/18/2008 3:03 pm |
That's the best you can do? Come on, for someone who espouses so much learning in the study of God's word are you so obtuse and without understanding? You say such outrageously false things, I'm beginning to think you are trying to emulate sweethoney's style of borish mendacity. You say I'm "willing to contradict" God. Where have I contradicted God? I have disputed with YOU. Are you calling yourself God? I brought up the fact of the medical reality that the heart has no foreskin to make the point that anyone who read the scripture would know that no real physical action was being called for. Rather, as I expalined twice now the reader (ancient or modern) would look for and find explanation in the context of the passage. Show me how this is a contradiction of anything other than your claim that the passage is hard to understand. Are you really so arrogant AND obtuse? Over the years of my teaching ministry, I have had people say things like, I like the way you presented that, you made it very clear and kept it simple, I really got a better understanding of the text. I've also gotten remarks concerning my teaching style, from well know Professor's of Christian schools, and Pastors of famous churches, stating that my method of teaching shows both careful research, and soundness of doctrine. But all you and Dennis can seem do is criticize, just about everything I've taught here at BC. I wonder why ? I'd be willing to have what I teach scrutinized, by any outside, well known, sound Evangelical source, organization, or church for error, lack of clarity and truthfulness. As for your comment, about the medical fact, of the heart not having foreskin, shows your propensity for not wanting to acknowledge the truth. I'd call that nit-picking. Whenever scripture addresses the need for the condition of man's heart to be changed, it speaks metaphorically. So, why was it even necessary, for you to point out that the heart ( medically speaking ) has no foreskin ? So what !! Its God's description of man's heart and condition, He gave the command.....not me. When scripture speaks of the heart of man, do you suppose its speaking of the organ; which pumps our blood ? The heart which scripture addresses is our spirit person, our inner being; which guides such things as our emotions, and moral conscience. It is this part of us which must be changed, and it cannot be changed via our flesh. Man's un-regenerated heart is corrupt to the core, it was Jesus who said: " For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. "Matt. 15:19 Jesus made this comment, in response to the Pharisee's complaint, that His disciples didn't wash hands before they ate. Jesus clarified the fact, that it isn't what goes into the body that defiles it; but rather those things which proceed from man's heart. Again, the heart is the seat of man's evil disposition, and without God's intervention ( of circumcising our hearts ), all of man's efforts are done in vain. We cannot change ourselves on the inside, and trying to get your flesh to submit; doesn't work. Its useless to try and live the Christian life, without, the inward change ( circumcision of the Heart ). Thats the point you keep missing, and yes you are doing nothing more than contradicting God, when you attempt to deny that fact, with your continued nit-picking. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/18/2008 3:15 pm |
Jesus please open Steve and Sweet Honeys eyes to truth that they can be delivered from mans execution of your word. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/18/2008 7:22 pm |
Aslan, you ignore all the scriptures that I show you. 2 Thess 2:16 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth interpretation is incomplete and therefore faulty. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/18/2008 10:25 pm |
Steve, I'm sure you are fine man and an adequate teacher. I have no issue with your character. It is your doctrine I disagree with. You say that I try to discredit everything you teach, but this is not so. I must say I am disappointed in the manner in which you approach disagreement on a conceptual level. Your posts here are really a disappointment from someone who styles himself such a scholar. I mean I'm not surprised when Kim blasts away with "You hate the truth!" or "You humanists are all the same" I've come to expect ignorant tripe like that from her. But when you can't even hold a sustained discussion without resorting to emotionalism it is very disheartening. But this condescending attitude is nothing new from you. From the level of your whining here it is obvious that you rarely encounter anyone who even considers challenging you on a foundational level. You'd like to think my arguments are all in error, but you cannot show this with any real authority. I doubt seriously that any of those people who are so impressed by you have differed with you as profoundly as have Dennis and I. You are no doubt the authority figure who is credited with having more knowledge than anyone else around and is given deference as a result. Here on BC, you have been challenged by people whose knowledge of scripture is comparable to your own but who hold different ideas about doctrine. From your response, one would think no one has ever had the temerity to tell you that you are just plain wrong and then to proceed to show you precisely HOW. You have a hard time grasping the idea that anyone could disagree with you about something as basic as the foundational doctrines of reformed theology. You say you are not a Calvinist, as does Kim, but I have not seen either of you show any substantive disagreement with Calvin. I address the questions you raise in your posts, you like to ignore most of what I say and focus on one point to the exclusion of all others. I answered your question about why I brought up the idea of figurative language and made my case why the passage is not hard to understand as you claim. You can disagree with my conclusions or argue with the logic employed in it, but saying it was beside the point is ludicrous. It does not have any logical foundation or validity. What you do is distort what I have said. You and Kim love to attribute opinions to me (or Dennis) that we have never stated. I realize that debating with real people is harder than knocking down the strawmen that you set up yourself, but if you can't handle it, don't try to pick fights. I apologize if I don't say the things the Calvinist handbook tells you to expect from the evil heretic arminians or humanists, but there is good reason for that. Contrary to what Kim keeps saying over and over again, I'm neither of those things. I'm a believer who disagrees with you on a basic level. Most folks here on BC don't really see just how radical the Calvinist view is. They hold a sort of nebulous idea that they do have some degree of free will, but have not bothered to look in to the matter with serious study. Some have. Some have adopted your position and others hold mine. When it comes to really proving what scripture says about it, there are solid arguments made on both sides. I hold that a comprehensive study of God's word show that the Calvinist philosophy is only possible through a selective reading of scripture. A wider reading shows that the matter is not as cut and dried as the Calvinist would have us believe. God is indeed sovereign, but He has allowed man a measure of autonomy in accepting or rejecting the Gospel. This is not just my opinion, the scripture bears this out. You like to say things like "you contradict God" but then don't follow up on your accusation with any proof. It is statements like that which cause me to lose respect for people who claim to be learned. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/19/2008 8:18 am |
" Steve, I'm sure you are fine man and an adequate teacher. I have no issue with your character. It is your doctrine I disagree with. " You don't seem to understand, that doctrine ( teaching ) is a reflection of character. You live what you believe. You can't say that you have no problem with my character, but disagree with my doctrine. Paul warns us to watch our life and doctrine closely ( I Ti. 4:16 ), and ones doctrine is definitely a reflection of what's in their heart. I have a heart for my Lord Jesus Christ, and will continue to glorify Him. He was merciful to me, and not because of some goodness, He saw in me, not because of my willingness to come, not because I was better or smarter; but because it pleased Him. Those who insist, that God foresaw their willingness to come to Christ, as He peered through the corridors of time, then chose them, to be predestined; miss the boat, and take the glory. Their boasting is in vain, and one day all who do such boasting will have their reward. Their autonomy ( which they don't really have ) will fade before their eyes, only to hear the words of Christ, " I Never knew you ". It is far better to be known by God, than to think you know Him, by stealing His thunder, with your bragging " I allowed Jesus to save me, I didn't have to come.....it was my choice ". I don't know what gave you the idea, that I have a hard time grasping disagreement with me, as if I can't accept or handle disagreement. As I pointed out above, you don't just disagree, you nit-pick, and by your nit-picking, you show your dishonesty. To put it another way, you aren't really concerned with the truth; you only pretend to be. You accused me of following the " Calvinist " play-book, and that you don't see any disagreement between Calvin, and what I teach. But..... is it Calvin I agree with; or is it scripture I agree with. My former wife, would often complain, that the marriage counselor we were seeing; agreed with me ( was taking my side ). I would try to explain to her, that the marriage counselor wasn't taking my side; but that both the marriage counselor, and I were both using the same source, to determine the truth......the Bible. She didn't like that, because she wanted to determine her own truth. Its the same with you, this excuse allows you to reject the truth of scripture, by playing the blame game ( accusing me of following man, or agreeing with Calvin ). So, I'm not following any of Calvin's or any other man's play-books, as you put it. I follow scripture, and if on some points you get the false notion that I'm following Calvin you're wrong. Just as with the marriage counselor, and my former wife's complaint.....we both rely on, and agree with the same source for truth.......the Bible. As to whose doctrine do I follow , and agree with; there should be no question. for never, in any of my post; have I ever quoted Calvin. I quote scripture and that's what you detest, the very Words of God. I'll leave the straw-dummies ( rather than solid arguments ) to you, since you appear to be skilled in building them, and point out the fact; that I've never been one to fear challenge on any level, of any who may disagree with, what I teach. I'm a sort of take it to you, in your face kind of guy, and even groups who hold a different position with me, will admit that I'm consistent, knowledgeable, and clear. You act as if what I say is somehow fuzzy, blurred, or confusing........ these are all excuses to reject the truth of scripture. There aren't solid arguments on both sides, one side is deadly wrong, and you can't be in the middle. You will either serve satan and follow his doctrines, or you serve Christ and follow His doctrine. There is only one way......not two or three. Either Christ saves completely or you save yourself. Either He gives life, or you attempt to take it. You do it God's way or the hell way. God isn't sovereign, if man has any autonomy ( cannot live independently of God ). I've proven your constant contradictions of God and His Word, yet you refuse to admit it. Ray Charles can even see that, and he's dead and blind........what's your problem ? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/19/2008 9:26 am |
Steve..... Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/19/2008 3:12 pm |
Quoting godlycook:"You don't seem to understand, that doctrine ( teaching ) is a reflection of character. You live what you believe. You can't say that you have no problem with my character, but disagree with my doctrine. Paul warns us to watch our life and doctrine closely ( I Ti. 4:16 ), and ones doctrine is definitely a reflection of what's in their heart. I have a heart for my Lord Jesus Christ, and will continue to glorify Him. He was merciful to me, and not because of some goodness, He saw in me, not because of my willingness to come, not because I was better or smarter; but because it pleased Him." Okay, have it your way. The problem is that in supporting "reformed" theology you tell the world by your attitude and doctrine that God is not interested in justice or mercy. You are telling us that because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really know it. Since coming to Christ by choice gives them no assurance that they are in fact chosen. Many would be better off trying to live up to the law of Moses than to live their lives wondering if they are saved or not. This does much more damage to the idea that we are saved by grace than a thousand free will doctrines. For that matter, what is your basis for believing that you are among the redeemed? How do you know beyond all doubt that God has chosen you? Do you have access to another volume of scripture that lists your name among those chosen? If so I'd like to see it. Surely you don't base your eternal salvation upon something as fleeting and changable as a feeling.? Or are you one of those who has made a checklist of all the necesary doctrines that you must believe in order to qualify for membership in the predestination club. hmmm....that sounds a lot like works to me. So what is left.....faith maybe? Oh but it must be the right kind of faith though mustn't it? It can't be a simple response of believing the good news. No it must be a faith which overwhelms all reason and will to save the sinner against his will. It must be a faith that requires no action or willingness on the part of the person thus taken by force. Don't you see the distorted image of God's love this creates? Don't you see how far this is from the idea that we are the bride of Christ? Read the Song of Solomon to see the image that God wants us to have in our hearts about intimate fellowship with Himself. You don't believe a bridegroom should force himself upon his bride do you? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/19/2008 7:41 pm |
Not so Aslan...those who are born again of the holy Spirit know it....we never doubt that we are saved...we are assured!!!!If you or others doubt then do not know God and only have a form of godliness. When the lord came into my life I had a born again experience and no one can take that away. He chose me!!! He sought me out and he filled me with the holy Spirit sovereignly. I said the sinners prayer many times....no change...still drugs and booze but when God came in I was a new creature in Christ! Gone the addiction.....I was in the spirit realm for 3 days.....if you have not tasted the goodness of God then ...sure you may doubt....with good reason. God does not force himself...we love him because he FIRST LOVED US!! NO ONE WHO TRULY EXPERIENCED GOD COULD REFUSE HIM. THOSE WHO TURN BACK HAD INTELLECTUAL BELIEF BUT WERE NOT BORN AGAIN. 1 John 5:14,15 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/19/2008 9:31 pm |
Jeff you said.........." Okay, have it your way. The problem is that in supporting "reformed" theology you tell the world by your attitude and doctrine that God is not interested in justice or mercy. You are telling us that because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really know it. Since coming to Christ by choice gives them no assurance that they are in fact chosen. Many would be better off trying to live up to the law of Moses than to live their lives wondering if they are saved or not." You really don't pay attention do you, even after I gave the example, of my former wife's complaints about the marriage counselor; agreeing with me. The marriage counselor and I agreed with the word of God, but she took it, as if he were on my side, because we were agreeing with what the other had said. In my marriage, whenever there was a problem, I would turn to the Bible for the answer. But because the marriage counselor, also used the Bible; to her it looked like he was on my side. Again, that's the same kind of mistake you're making. I agree with God's Word, not Calvin or the so-called " Reformed Faith ". Calvin reached some of the same conclusions I reached; from studying, but we both agree ( most of the time ) with the Bible. You see, I don't agree with everything, Calvin believed. I can think for myself, without the help of Calvin. You have misrepresented my position ( once again), concerning predestination by saying: " You are telling us that because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really know it. " When did I ever say that ? Christians are the only ones, who can know for certain they are saved. Those who are not in Christ, never know. They always live in fear of not living up to the expectations of God. False expectations devised by Satan through man. How does the Christian know for certain, that he ( or she ) is saved and has Eternal life ? You appear not to know the answer, and to say that I tell people, " because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really now it ", shows why you dislike the doctrine. To you predestination means, you can't know for sure, if you didn't have a part in your salvation. According to Paul, the doctrine of predestination is not a fearful or threatening doctrine, for the believer. It gives the believer the assurance, of knowing that what God has done ( before anything was created ), according to His purpose and will, was done for us and is the guaranteed; sealed by the Holy Spirit. Christians know they already have eternal life, and what we hope for has already been accomplished for us by Christ, and His promises cannot be undone. I once had a fellow tell me, that he knew he was saved, because he said the so-called sinners prayer. Then he asked me, if I had ever said the sinners prayer ? I replied, No, and he said " you can't be saved if because never said the prayer. " Then he asked, " How do you know, you're saved ? I replied, " By the word of my testimony, and by the witness of the Spirit." He had never heard of such a thing. There is no checklist, nor is salvation based on feeling........as for faith, you're correct; it must be the right kind of faith. Men tend to have faith in all sorts of things, faith in themselves, faith in keeping the law, faith in having enough faith to stay saved. But biblical faith is a completely different story. Biblical faith is something that never ends, it can't be given back, it never stops believing in Christ, it doesn't leave Christ, never distrust Christ. True faith endures, not because the Christian is trying hard to keep it; but because God keeps it for us. Assurance is something those who don't believe in predestination don't have. They just keep trying.......rather than trusting. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/19/2008 9:40 pm |
Jeff you said.........." Okay, have it your way. The problem is that in supporting "reformed" theology you tell the world by your attitude and doctrine that God is not interested in justice or mercy. You are telling us that because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really know it. Since coming to Christ by choice gives them no assurance that they are in fact chosen. Many would be better off trying to live up to the law of Moses than to live their lives wondering if they are saved or not." You really don't pay attention do you, even after I gave the example, of my former wife's complaints about the marriage counselor; agreeing with me. The marriage counselor and I agreed with the word of God, but she took it, as if he was on my side, because we were agreeing with what the other had said. In my marriage, whenever there was a problem, I would turn to the Bible for the answer. But because the marriage counselor, also used the Bible; to her it looked like he was on my side. Again, that's the same kind of mistake you're making. I agree with God's Word, not Calvin or the so-called " Reformed Faith ". Calvin reached some of the same conclusions I reached; from studying, but we both agree ( most of the time ) with the Bible. You see, I don't agree with everything, Calvin believed. I can think for myself, without the help of Calvin. You have misrepresented my position ( once again), concerning predestination by saying: " You are telling us that because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really know it. " When did I ever say that ? Christians are the only ones, who can know for certain they are saved. Those who are not in Christ, never know. They always live in fear of not living up to the expectations of God. False expectations devised by Satan through man. How does the Christian know for certain, that he ( or she ) is saved and has Eternal life ? You appear not to know the answer, and to say that I tell people, " because of predestination that there is no way for anyone to be saved and really now it ", shows why you dislike the doctrine. To you predestination means, you can't know for sure, if you didn't have a part in your salvation. According to Paul, the doctrine of predestination is not a fearful or threatening doctrine, for the believer. It gives the believer the assurance, of knowing that what God has done ( before anything was created ), according to His purpose and will, was done for us and is the guaranteed; sealed by the Holy Spirit. Christians know they already have eternal life, and what we hope for has already been accomplished for us by Christ, and His promises cannot be undone. I once had a fellow tell me, that he knew he was saved, because he said the so-called sinners prayer. Then he asked me, if I had ever said the sinners prayer ? I replied, No, and he said " you can't be saved if because never said the prayer. " Then he asked, " How do you know, you're saved ? I replied, " By the word of my testimony, and by the witness of the Spirit." He had never heard of such a thing. There is no checklist, nor is salvation based on feeling........as for faith, you're correct; it must be the right kind of faith. Men tend to have faith in all sorts of things, faith in themselves, faith in keeping the law, faith in having enough faith to stay saved. But biblical faith is a completely different story. Biblical faith is something that never ends, it can't be given back, it never stops believing in Christ, it doesn't leave Christ, never distrust Christ. True faith endures, not because the Christian is trying hard to keep it; but because God keeps it for us. Assurance is something those who don't believe in predestination don't have. They just keep trying.......rather than trusting. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/20/2008 5:50 am |
Not so Aslan...those who are born again of the holy Spirit know it....we never doubt that we are saved...we are assured!!!!If you or others doubt then do not know God and only have a form of godliness. When the lord came into my life I had a born again experience and no one can take that away. He chose me!!! He sought me out and he filled me with the holy Spirit sovereignly. I said the sinners prayer many times....no change...still drugs and booze but when God came in I was a new creature in Christ! Gone the addiction.....I was in the spirit realm for 3 days.....if you have not tasted the goodness of God then ...sure you may doubt....with good reason. God does not force himself...we love him because he FIRST LOVED US!! NO ONE WHO TRULY EXPERIENCED GOD COULD REFUSE HIM. THOSE WHO TURN BACK HAD INTELLECTUAL BELIEF BUT WERE NOT BORN AGAIN. 1 John 5:14,15 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him prophetic insight to immaturity rather than any real knowledge about me as a person. NO ONE WHO HAS TRULY EXPERIENCED GOD COULD SAY THAT HE WOULD TAKE US AGAINST OUR WILL. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/20/2008 7:11 am |
Steve, It appears that I will need to address points one at a time in my posts with you, since that does seem to be your limit. I will also abandon any attempts to be ironic, since they go completely unnoticed. It seems mischaracterizing the beliefs of the other side in this discussion is all too easy. Neither of us sees the world except through our own eyes. quoting you: Christians know they already have eternal life, and what we hope for has already been accomplished for us by Christ, and His promises cannot be undone. I once had a fellow tell me, that he knew he was saved, because he said the so-called sinners prayer. Then he asked me, if I had ever said the sinners prayer ? I replied, No, and he said " you can't be saved if because never said the prayer. " Then he asked, " How do you know, you're saved ? I replied, " By the word of my testimony, and by the witness of the Spirit." He had never heard of such a thing. We agree that simply saying certain words is not what brings us into an experience of salvation. But the Word is very clear:Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Are you saying that simply believing what God has said in His Word is not enough? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/20/2008 9:23 am |
ASLAN But the Word is very clear: Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Yes but remeber that NO ONE CAN SAY THAT JESUS IS LORD EXCEPT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT!!! NOT YOUR FLESH!!! 1 Corinthians 12.3: I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/20/2008 10:41 pm |
No doubt the Holy Spirit is at work on the hearts and minds of people before they are saved. God leads toward salvation. Acts 19 1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. These people were, by the Word of scripture, already believers yet they had not recieved the Holy Spirit. So obviously your contention that they did not have the ability to believe is mistaken. Its not my opinion, its what the scripture says. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/21/2008 7:46 am |
Yes, they were believers but not born again. One cannot be born again without the holy Spirit. God draws those his calls and saves those he calls to salvation. They received the baptism of John remember, not Jesus. Thats why believers may not be Christians as they may not have had the holy Spirit come in. The Charismatics call it Baptism in the Spirit and Methodists sanctification but in reality this is the born again experience. No one is saved without the holy Spirit. Many in Churches are not saved. Romans 8:9,10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/21/2008 8:30 am |
So you are saying it is possible to be a believer and not yet be born again? John 5:24 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jesus shows us that the believer passes from death into everlasting life when they believe. So it is not possible to be a believer and not be saved. You can't have it both ways. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/21/2008 5:15 pm |
Not so, Simon was a believer and had an evil heatrt. He was not saved. The devil believes..is he saved? Many people believe the gospel but live like the devil...are they saved..no! It is not enough to believe. That is why Jesus said that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. There is a difference between intellectual belief (human faith) and saving faith (God gift) When we preach the gospel we do not know who gets saved and who does not. That is left up to God. When they get born again of the holy Spirit they have the witness in themselves by the holy Spirit and the fruit will start to show up. It may take time as some people can fake it for a good while. In churches there are many who profess to know Jesu Christ but they actually are not his sheep. God allows the wheat and the tares to grow together until harvest time. Acts 8:14-24 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/21/2008 7:39 pm |
Steve, It appears that I will need to address points one at a time in my posts with you, since that does seem to be your limit. I will also abandon any attempts to be ironic, since they go completely unnoticed. It seems mischaracterizing the beliefs of the other side in this discussion is all too easy. Neither of us sees the world except through our own eyes. quoting you: Christians know they already have eternal life, and what we hope for has already been accomplished for us by Christ, and His promises cannot be undone. I once had a fellow tell me, that he knew he was saved, because he said the so-called sinners prayer. Then he asked me, if I had ever said the sinners prayer ? I replied, No, and he said " you can't be saved if because never said the prayer. " Then he asked, " How do you know, you're saved ? I replied, " By the word of my testimony, and by the witness of the Spirit." He had never heard of such a thing. We agree that simply saying certain words is not what brings us into an experience of salvation. But the Word is very clear:Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Are you saying that simply believing what God has said in His Word is not enough? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/21/2008 8:22 pm |
I've explained this before..........Rom. 10:9-10, is a confession of consequence. Do you remember how I explained the three aspects of salvation ? Past, Present, and future. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/21/2008 10:23 pm |
Not so, Simon was a believer and had an evil heatrt. He was not saved. The devil believes..is he saved? Many people believe the gospel but live like the devil...are they saved..no! It is not enough to believe. That is why Jesus said that you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. There is a difference between intellectual belief (human faith) and saving faith (God gift) When we preach the gospel we do not know who gets saved and who does not. That is left up to God. When they get born again of the holy Spirit they have the witness in themselves by the holy Spirit and the fruit will start to show up. It may take time as some people can fake it for a good while. In churches there are many who profess to know Jesu Christ but they actually are not his sheep. God allows the wheat and the tares to grow together until harvest time. Acts 8:14-24 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me. The scripture does not say that Simon was not saved. It shows that he believed and was baptised. It shows that because of his background in sorcery he has the wrong idea that spiritual power could be purchased. Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocrisy in Galatians chapter 2. Does Peter's error mean that he wasn't saved? Of course not. Did Simon repent for his error? It appears that he did, and yet you are sure beyond a doubt that he was not saved. The scripture does not support your interpretation, sorry. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/22/2008 6:09 am |
He was not sorry for his sin, he just did not want to have repercussions for it. True repentance comes from God and is a change of heart. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/22/2008 7:56 am |
He was not sorry for his sin, he just did not want to have repercussions for it. True repentance comes from God and is a change of heart. Do they pray for him or not? The scripture doesn't say. Does Simon repent? Once again the scripture is unclear. All we do know is the scripture said he believed.and was baptised. I try to stay away from adding to what the scripture says,since we know what happens to people who do that, don't we? We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/22/2008 12:57 pm |
Simon had an evil heart Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great oneit is only obvious that he still was power hungry. Believers who want to be admired by men and are power hungry do not know the God of the bible. We can see this by the many ministries elevating themselves in this day and age. Believers in their version of the gospel but true Christians? I think not! Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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4/22/2008 1:30 pm |
Simon had an evil heart Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great oneit is only obvious that he still was power hungry. Believers who want to be admired by men and are power hungry do not know the God of the bible. We can see this by the many ministries elevating themselves in this day and age. Believers in their version of the gospel but true Christians? I think not! Peter rebukes Simon's sin, he tells him to repent. Simon asks for prayer, but you cannot know if his desire is to merely escape the consequences of his sin or if the repentance was genuine, because the Word does not give us that information. Your bias toward your own doctrine fills in all the blanks for you. That is why your interpretation is faulty. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/22/2008 5:43 pm |
Sorry I must have missed that lecture series. I'll try to interpret your answer. You are saying that believing God's word is not enough then. Okay. Just wondering. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/22/2008 7:53 pm |
Nice try. There is plenty that the book of Acts can teach us. This is just another way to try to explain away things that don't fit into your systematic theology. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, I'll use this as my guide, not your convoluted reasoning. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/22/2008 8:26 pm |
Nice try. There is plenty that the book of Acts can teach us. This is just another way to try to explain away things that don't fit into your systematic theology. 2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, I'll use this as my guide, not your convoluted reasoning. You can't use the Book of Acts in the same way, you use I Corinthians. The Book of Corinthians; lays out doctrinal issues, that we as Christians are to adhere to. This is not so with the Book of Acts, of course for charismatics, this answer is unacceptable. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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4/23/2008 6:20 am |
I'll say it a different way....those in doctrinal bondage to reformed theology must explain away every passage of scripture that clearly contradicts their scheme of interpretation. To read these passages objectively would require that they abandon the Calvinist paradigm. I know at least one charismatic who shares that mindset with you. btw-just what important doctrine of Calvin's do you disagree with? I'm curious since you claim to be an independant thinker. We are what we believe we are. C. S. Lewis
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4/23/2008 11:20 am |
Simon believed and was baptized. Outwardly he was a Christian but his belief was only superficial and he was still a pagan at heart. He coveted the apostolic office and saw the opportunity of using Christianity to make money or a business corporation masquerading as the church of Christ!! You do not want to accept the obvious because it would blow your humanist doctrine out the window! From Simon Magus we get the word simony which means to buy a religious office with money. Peter perceived his intention and said "You have neither PART nor LOT in this matter" (Verse 21). The true Apostles had been chosen after Christ’s death to take PART in the apostleship by LOT (Acts 1:25, 26). Peter was telling Simon he couldn’t buy an APOSTLESHIP. Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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