 | Blogs > Noah235 > PLOUGHMAN'S LUNCH > Law and Grace; Jesus & Paul |
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"The law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" {John 1v17} The Law defines what is right and what is wrong for us to do. In the Old Testament {e.g. Deuteronomy 28} there are blessings promised for obedience, and curses threatened for disobedience. In the Sermon on the Mount {Matthew 5} Jesus makes it clear that he is not going to abolish the law but to "fulfil it", and that what Moses said was right is still right, and what Moses said was wrong is still wrong. However, when we read the rest of the Sermon on the Mount, we see that by "fulfil" the law Jesus also had in mind the idea that he would actually make clear its true meaning. The law said "do not murder" but Jesus makes it clear that anger and hatred are also wrong. The law said "do not commit adultery" but Jesus makes it clear that lustful thoughts are also wrong. He taught that sin is really a wrong attitude of the heart which leads people to do wrong things. As his encounter with the 'Rich Young Man' {Mark 10} makes clear, it is possible to obey all the commandments outwardly and yet still have the wrong attitude inwardly. Jesus' words "No-one is good except God alone" {Mark 10v18} agree with Paul's words "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" {Romans 3v23}. Although Jesus can say to the 'Rich Young Man' that it is theoretically possible to attain eternal life by perfectly observing the whole of the law, in reality this cannot be achieved by any of us because of our sinful nature. Paul agrees: "No-one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin" {Romans 3v20}. Both Jesus and Paul make love the heart of the law. When Jesus was asked about the commandments he said that the whole of the Law and the Prophets hang on the two commandments to 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength' and 'Love your neighbour as yourself'. He also famously added a 'new commandment' to this when he told his followers to love one another as he had loved them {see John 13v34-35}. Paul agrees with Jesus when he says: "Love is the fulfilment of the law" {Romans 13v10}. Loving God and doing right is impossible for us, but through the death of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit it is now possible. Jesus said: "If you love me, you will obey my commands" {John 14v15} and in saying this he made it clear that we do not obey in order to achieve grace, but to express our gratitude for the grace that God has poured into our lives. Paul teaches that "If you are led by the Spirit you are not under law" {Galatians 5v18} but is elsewhere very clear that this does not mean we can ignore the law and just carry on sinning: "Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!" {Romans 6v15}. JESUS AND PAUL ARE TEACHING THE SAME THING! Come on brothers and sisters, it's not rocket science. Peter  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15 |
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9/27/2008 7:37 pm |
Amen. Nancy Let us share one anothers burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ
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 9/27/2008 7:40 pm |
Again I have nothing but a hearty AMEN for you Peter! Susan aka Red God gives the very best to those who leave the choices to Him. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine...to Him be the glory. Eph 3:20 Find me at my screen name, blogspot and the usual ending. See ya there! Where I For Everything There is a Season Halloween Pics from Work
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9/27/2008 8:20 pm |
Amen, my Brother! Excellent post!
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9/27/2008 9:23 pm |
AMEN
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9/27/2008 10:20 pm |
So now ( that Christ has come ), is the believer able to obey the law, and is the believer required to keep the law ? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/28/2008 12:17 am |
So now ( that Christ has come ), is the believer able to obey the law, and is the believer required to keep the law ? He/she is also required to KEEP the law but with the following qualifications: 1. It is the spirit of the law {as defined by loving God, our neighbour and our brothers and sisters} that is required to be kept. 2. This requirement has nothing to do with earning salvation, which is a free undeserved gift of God's grace. But as I said in the main post, what Moses said was right is still right, and what Moses said was wrong is still wrong. Thanks and blessings. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/28/2008 12:19 am |
Thanks to all who have responded so far. Sorry if you haven't had an individual "thanks" but my 'respond' facility is behaving temperamentally! Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/28/2008 6:08 am |
I have a couple of question,if I may. So if a believer sins(because of this old man)and does not REPENT but continues in this sin let's say He/She is in fornication.they get comfortable with this condition for a year,1.are they still considered a Believer? and 2.if they should happen to pass away while in this SIN will they be allowed in?
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9/28/2008 7:02 am |
I have a couple of question,if I may. So if a believer sins(because of this old man)and does not REPENT but continues in this sin let's say He/She is in fornication.they get comfortable with this condition for a year,1.are they still considered a Believer? and 2.if they should happen to pass away while in this SIN will they be allowed in? If I am walking along the street I might allow an unrighteous thought to dwell in my mind to the point where it can be regarded as sin. If a car then mounts the pavement and kills me before I have an opportunity to confess it, will I be sent to hell? I DON'T BELIEVE SO. However Hebrews 10v26 says: "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God". It is impossible to interpret this in any other way but that we may {by continual, deliberate, conscious defiance of God} walk away from the salvation that we have been given. Paul, in writing to Timothy, also refers to 3 believers Hymanaeus, Philetus and Alexander, who have "shipwrecked their faith". Ultimately only God can judge if we have crossed the line and become unbelievers, but he will make it very hard for us to do so and impossible to do so without realising it. Jesus said about his 'sheep' {believers}: "No-one can snatch them out of my hand" {John 10v28}. However I believe it is possible for us to "jump out of his hand" {see above} or for him to "throw us out of his hand" {see Revelation 3v16}. But I don't believe we should live our Christian lives looking over our shoulders in case we forget to confess something. If we want to stay in Jesus' hands he will not allow us to fall out or be snatched out. If anything requires confession then the Holy Spirit will make that plain and it is only if we purposefully ignore his conviction that we put ourselves at risk. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/28/2008 9:46 am |
The believer IS able to obey the law, as he/she now has Christ living inside him/her. But since we all also still have the 'old man' with us, it is likely that he/she will slip up from time to time, and need to confess and seek God's forgiveness. He/she is also required to KEEP the law but with the following qualifications: 1. It is the spirit of the law {as defined by loving God, our neighbour and our brothers and sisters} that is required to be kept. 2. This requirement has nothing to do with earning salvation, which is a free undeserved gift of God's grace. But as I said in the main post, what Moses said was right is still right, and what Moses said was wrong is still wrong. Thanks and blessings. Peter Anyone who believes that Christians are now capable of keeping the law ( even partially ), or that Christians should be a least trying to keep it; are guilty of teaching a false gospel. Jesus didn't come to make it possible for us to obey the law, and no matter how well you may try to disguise it; law and grace don't mix. You said " This requirement has nothing to do with earning salvation, which is a free undeserved gift of God's grace. " Oh but it does! The requirement of the law is perfect obedience, and if you can't obey perfectly; its a waste of time, trying to obey any portion, in any manor. If salvation is a free gift, as you said, and no one can earn it, then it follows of necessity that no one can " Jump Out " as you put it; because that in itself would imply deserts ( what one earns or deserves ). God gave the law for one purpose and one purpose only. TO REVEAL SIN, AND OUR NEED FOR A SAVIOUR. As Paul puts it, the law was put into effect to lead us to Christ, and once we've come to Christ; there is no longer a need for the cruel task master. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/28/2008 12:26 pm |
Hi Peter, Looks like you might have started summit here lad.  .God Bless, Wendy  P.S. Amen to your post.  Show me the way Sweet JESUS.Lead and i Will follow. 
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9/28/2008 7:29 pm |
thank you peter I agree..
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9/28/2008 9:44 pm |
Pete.........you are contradicting yourself. Both in your response to me, and your response to crucified777. I did a post on the law a while ago, where I explained the purpose of the law, and why the believer has died to it. Any discussion on the law must be viewed in light of the doctrine of Justification. How is the believer justified ? Is it by obeying the law and faith ? Anyone who believes that Christians are now capable of keeping the law ( even partially ), or that Christians should be a least trying to keep it; are guilty of teaching a false gospel. Jesus didn't come to make it possible for us to obey the law, and no matter how well you may try to disguise it; law and grace don't mix. You said " This requirement has nothing to do with earning salvation, which is a free undeserved gift of God's grace. " Oh but it does! The requirement of the law is perfect obedience, and if you can't obey perfectly; its a waste of time, trying to obey any portion, in any manor. If salvation is a free gift, as you said, and no one can earn it, then it follows of necessity that no one can " Jump Out " as you put it; because that in itself would imply deserts ( what one earns or deserves ). God gave the law for one purpose and one purpose only. TO REVEAL SIN, AND OUR NEED FOR A SAVIOUR. As Paul puts it, the law was put into effect to lead us to Christ, and once we've come to Christ; there is no longer a need for the cruel task master. For the record I don't agree that I am contradicting myself - my position is perfectly consistent even if you don't agree with it. I totally agree that trying to obey the law AS A MEANS OF MAKING MYSELF ACCEPTABLE TO GOD is a waste of time, but since the law is now written on our hearts {in the 'loving' sense that I have defined} then we should WANT to obey it. It is no longer a cruel task master because the motivation to obey now comes from within rather than outside, but it is still a guideline for correct behaviour. {Unless you think we SHOULD now be stealing, lying, killing, committing adultery etc. - of course I realise that you DON'T think that and the very absurdity of even suggesting it makes my point I think}. And of course I agree with you that we are justified by faith not by observing the law. Steve I'm not too keen on being accused of teaching a false gospel - a charge that I reject utterly. I'm very willing to hear differing opinions and your posts always challenge me and keep me on my toes and are therefore always appreciated. But please refrain from the personal attacks in the future. Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/28/2008 9:47 pm |
Hi Peter, Looks like you might have started summit here lad. .God Bless, Wendy P.S. Amen to your post.  Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/28/2008 9:48 pm |
thank you peter I agree.. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/28/2008 9:52 pm |
For those who are interested, here is an excellent blog on the issue of taking the WHOLE of the Bible {not just the bits you like} to be the Word of God: WHAT YOU BELIEVE MATTERS... Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/29/2008 2:23 am |
I think your teaching is accurate and I cannot see any contradiction. Keep it up Peter. May God continue to use you in the gifting of teaching. Good understanding and explaination of the Gospel truth. When one is filled with the Holy Spirit and hungers to seek God more and more, one naturally wants to obey the Lord. It is written on our hearts and the more we grow closer to our Lord, the most natural it is to please our Father.
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9/29/2008 10:03 am |
Pete...........you don't want this post to get bogged down in a " jumping out " debate. Then why did you bring it up ? Your main purpose of drawing attention to the fact, that Jesus and Paul don't conflict with one another is a noble idea. BUT.........you conflict with their teachings. Jesus says His gift of salvation is permanent ( everlasting, unending, eternal ) and Paul agrees with Jesus. You come along and introduce something that is foreign, to what Jesus and Paul agree on. Its amazing what people will say AMEN to, it just goes to show that people aren't reading their Bible. In Matt. the 5th chapter Jesus said, " Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the pharisees, you will in no way enter the kingdom of God. " He said this, in connection with His teaching concerning on the Law. So, how can a man ( or a woman ) ever hope to achieve such a goal ? Is it by their effort ? Paul asked the Galatians: " I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard ? " Gal.3:2 In his Epistle to the Galatians, Paul went to great lengths to correct the error; which had crept into that church. He had to warn them of the dangers of mixing law and grace, and it is very dangerous, and puts those who teach the Galatians error under a curse. You accused me of personally attacking you. Was Paul attacking the Galatians; or was he attempting to correct them, and bring them back into line with the truth. If we want to be a teacher of others, then our teaching must line up with Jesus and Paul ( and James and Peter ). Out of all of the doctrines held by Jesus, Paul, or any other writer of scripture, the one that is the hinge which all others depend on, its the doctrine of justification. It is the doctrine by which YOU and I stand or falls; to put it another way you could be correct about everything else, but if you are amiss on this doctrine; all else would be for nothing. The law is not based on faith, and those who try to live by the law, are living contrary to faith, and will face the consequences of the law ( which is death ). Christ has redeemed believers from the curse of the law ( not meaning that we can go sin as we please ). So, don't take what I say as a personal attack........I'm not attacking you, and I hope you would be open to correction. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/29/2008 10:51 am |
I think your teaching is accurate and I cannot see any contradiction. Keep it up Peter. May God continue to use you in the gifting of teaching. Good understanding and explaination of the Gospel truth. When one is filled with the Holy Spirit and hungers to seek God more and more, one naturally wants to obey the Lord. It is written on our hearts and the more we grow closer to our Lord, the most natural it is to please our Father. Peter  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/29/2008 11:07 am |
Pete...........you don't want this post to get bogged down in a " jumping out " debate. Then why did you bring it up ? Your main purpose of drawing attention to the fact, that Jesus and Paul don't conflict with one another is a noble idea. BUT.........you conflict with their teachings. Jesus says His gift of salvation is permanent ( everlasting, unending, eternal ) and Paul agrees with Jesus. You come along and introduce something that is foreign, to what Jesus and Paul agree on. Its amazing what people will say AMEN to, it just goes to show that people aren't reading their Bible. In Matt. the 5th chapter Jesus said, " Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the pharisees, you will in no way enter the kingdom of God. " He said this, in connection with His teaching concerning on the Law. So, how can a man ( or a woman ) ever hope to achieve such a goal ? Is it by their effort ? Paul asked the Galatians: " I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard ? " Gal.3:2 In his Epistle to the Galatians, Paul went to great lengths to correct the error; which had crept into that church. He had to warn them of the dangers of mixing law and grace, and it is very dangerous, and puts those who teach the Galatians error under a curse. You accused me of personally attacking you. Was Paul attacking the Galatians; or was he attempting to correct them, and bring them back into line with the truth. If we want to be a teacher of others, then our teaching must line up with Jesus and Paul ( and James and Peter ). Out of all of the doctrines held by Jesus, Paul, or any other writer of scripture, the one that is the hinge which all others depend on, its the doctrine of justification. It is the doctrine by which YOU and I stand or falls; to put it another way you could be correct about everything else, but if you are amiss on this doctrine; all else would be for nothing. The law is not based on faith, and those who try to live by the law, are living contrary to faith, and will face the consequences of the law ( which is death ). Christ has redeemed believers from the curse of the law ( not meaning that we can go sin as we please ). So, don't take what I say as a personal attack........I'm not attacking you, and I hope you would be open to correction. I accept your assurance that no personal attack was intended, although accusing someone of being a false teacher is almost the most personal attack that ever appears in the Bible - much stronger than correcting someone's doctrine which was what Paul was doing with the Galatians. Leaving that aside, you continue to read into my statements something that is not there and never has been. Saying that it is still right not to kill does not mean that I am claiming my "ticket to heaven" off the back of the fact that I have never killed anybody! But this is in essence what you are saying and it is frankly ludicrous. Finally, you can stand or fall by your doctrine if you want. I will stand by the blood of Christ shed for me. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/30/2008 4:37 am |
Really enjoyed this blog, especially the last sentence above.  I would be very careful to ever say to someone they are teaching a false doctrine, I have to say I agree with Pete, its a very personal attack. Our words are to edify, encourage and leaving a healing balm, our foosteps leaving behind the evidence of salted pathways. Correction comes very quickly to me when necessary by the HS; we are to have teachable spirits, if I were to ever feel the need to 'correct' someone, personally, Gal 5.22 would be a guide for me before I spoke (1 Cor 13 also). 
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9/30/2008 8:12 am |
Steve, the reason I mentioned the "jumping out" thing was because I was answering the question that crucified777 had asked. He seemed to be happy with my response and that is my main concern on that issue. I accept your assurance that no personal attack was intended, although accusing someone of being a false teacher is almost the most personal attack that ever appears in the Bible - much stronger than correcting someone's doctrine which was what Paul was doing with the Galatians. Leaving that aside, you continue to read into my statements something that is not there and never has been. Saying that it is still right not to kill does not mean that I am claiming my "ticket to heaven" off the back of the fact that I have never killed anybody! But this is in essence what you are saying and it is frankly ludicrous. Finally, you can stand or fall by your doctrine if you want. I will stand by the blood of Christ shed for me. Peter What I'm trying to get you to see Pete, is that the doctrine of Justification relies only on our standing ( by faith ) on the BLOOD of CHRIST for our salvation. If you really believed that, you wouldn't be holding on to your " Jump Out " position; which actually shows you are trusting in yourself ( not the Blood ) to keep you saved ! You've gone to great lengths to prove your theory ( that a Christian can be lost ) yet you claim to believe in the redemptive work done by Christ. If anyone can " jump out " then Christ wasted His time, and the Father's promise to Abraham is useless. The grace of God alone saves us, and the grace of God keeps us saved. Until you understand that, all is lost! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/30/2008 8:15 am |
Really enjoyed this blog, especially the last sentence above. I would be very careful to ever say to someone they are teaching a false doctrine, I have to say I agree with Pete, its a very personal attack. Our words are to edify, encourage and leaving a healing balm, our foosteps leaving behind the evidence of salted pathways. Correction comes very quickly to me when necessary by the HS; we are to have teachable spirits, if I were to ever feel the need to 'correct' someone, personally, Gal 5.22 would be a guide for me before I spoke (1 Cor 13 also). No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/30/2008 10:42 am |
Really enjoyed this blog, especially the last sentence above. I would be very careful to ever say to someone they are teaching a false doctrine, I have to say I agree with Pete, its a very personal attack. Our words are to edify, encourage and leaving a healing balm, our foosteps leaving behind the evidence of salted pathways. Correction comes very quickly to me when necessary by the HS; we are to have teachable spirits, if I were to ever feel the need to 'correct' someone, personally, Gal 5.22 would be a guide for me before I spoke (1 Cor 13 also). Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/30/2008 10:45 am |
" Finally, you can stand or fall by your doctrine if you want. I will stand by the blood of Christ shed for me. " What I'm trying to get you to see Pete, is that the doctrine of Justification relies only on our standing ( by faith ) on the BLOOD of CHRIST for our salvation. If you really believed that, you wouldn't be holding on to your " Jump Out " position; which actually shows you are trusting in yourself ( not the Blood ) to keep you saved ! You've gone to great lengths to prove your theory ( that a Christian can be lost ) yet you claim to believe in the redemptive work done by Christ. If anyone can " jump out " then Christ wasted His time, and the Father's promise to Abraham is useless. The grace of God alone saves us, and the grace of God keeps us saved. Until you understand that, all is lost! Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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