 | Blogs > Noah235 > PLOUGHMAN'S LUNCH > FOREKNOWLEDGE, PREDESTINATION & FREE WILL |
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Foreknowledge is not the same as predestination. To have foreknowledge means to know that something is going to happen before it does. Since God is OUTSIDE time he is not restricted by time in the way that we are, so he knows about every event in our past, present and future. Predestination means something more: if God predestines something to happen then he not only knows that it WILL happen, but it is HIS unchangeable decision that it happens. There are several scriptures which tell us explicitly some of the things God decided before he even created the world: "He [Christ] was chosen before the creation of the world" {1 Peter 1v20} Christ is also referred to as "...the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world" {Revelation 13v8} "He chose us in him before the creation of the world..." {Ephesians 1 v 4} Thus it is clear that God's plan included the sacrificial death of Christ and the redemption of a people BEFORE the world was even created. Ephesians 1 gives further details of this plan which principally involves Christ and also the 'saints'. We are to be "holy and blameless in his sight" {1v4}, "adopted as his sons" {1v5} with "redemption through his blood" {1v7} and all this is "for the praise of his glory" {1v12}. This is the big picture. But does it mean we have no choice over whether we become part of this redeemed people or not? Well I am sure that David, Jeremiah and Paul would say it DOES mean that, as the following scriptures indicate: "All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" {Psalm 139v16} God said to Jeremiah "Before you were born I set you apart" {Jeremiah 1v5} Paul declared that "God...set me apart from birth" {Galatians 1v15} and was quite clear when he said: "God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden" {Romans 9v18} Jesus himself told us "You did not choose me, but I chose you..." {John 15v16} But this is not the full story. Right from the beginning of creation there is evidence that God, who after all created man 'in his own image', has given us the right and the ability {and the responsibility} of making right choices. It is of course impossible to give us the freedom to choose right unless we also have the freedom to choose wrong. Specifically, God told Adam he was "free to eat from any tree in the garden" {Gen 2v16} but at the same time "you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" {Gen 2v17}. The rest, as they say, is history! Although the extent of our free will is necessarily altered as a result of the Fall, God continues to place responsibility on us to make right choices: "I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life..." {Deuteronomy 30v19} "Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..we will serve the Lord" {Joshua 24v15} John's gospel also hints that a response is required from us as one of the most famous verses in the Bible suggests: "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" {John 3v16} Salvation through the Son is an undeserved gift of God's love, grace and mercy, and we can do NOTHING to earn or deserve it, but all presents need to be unwrapped if they are to benefit us. "Believing in him" here represents the unwrapping of the present, and until we exercise faith we do not benefit from Jesus' death. Paul writes: "Those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son" {Romans 8v29} and to my mind this clarifies the uncertainty. God knew in advance who would respond to the gospel, and it was his unchangeable decision {predestination} that those people would become like Jesus. So my conclusion is that God has a plan for the world, that plan always included the fall and redemption through Jesus Christ. He has a plan for each of our lives, BUT he has given us free will and, although he wants all men to be saved {see 1 Tim 2v4}, some will choose not to accept the salvation that is freely offered out of his love, mercy and grace. I will leave the last word to Paul: "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all" {Romans 11v32} Peter  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15 |
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 8/27/2008 3:48 pm |
 .Very good Peter,I`ve been lookin forward to this post.I love the way you explain things.Even i can understand,  .Thank you.Peace be with you, Me   Show me the way Sweet JESUS.Lead and i Will follow. 
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8/27/2008 6:04 pm |
I clipped this from my post on Foreknowledge However, if foreknowledge is foresight, ( God peeking into the future ) and God predestined us based on what He saw some of us would do. Then you have to explain why God isn't quite sure who will believe and be saved, since man has the ability to reject or accept His gift; rather than become recipients of it. Then there's the problem of the words Jesus speaks the those who, claim various works done in Jesus' name. Who are these people, and how can Jesus claim He never knew them ? Perhaps He was only looking through one eye; when He peeked through the portals of time, to see what we would do. I've got a lot more. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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8/27/2008 6:49 pm |
I clipped this from my post on Foreknowledge However, if foreknowledge is foresight, ( God peeking into the future ) and God predestined us based on what He saw some of us would do. Then you have to explain why God isn't quite sure who will believe and be saved, since man has the ability to reject or accept His gift; rather than become recipients of it. Then there's the problem of the words Jesus speaks the those who, claim various works done in Jesus' name. Who are these people, and how can Jesus claim He never knew them ? Perhaps He was only looking through one eye; when He peeked through the portals of time, to see what we would do. I've got a lot more. As for the people to whom Jesus says "I never knew you", Matthew only describes them as CLAIMING to do things in Jesus name. I think they were impostors, and many today are in the same position. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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8/27/2008 7:58 pm |
I don't believe God is in any doubt about who will be saved and who won't. I'm not sure which bit of my post leads you to think I do believe that. What I said is that he has decided that those who DO respond will be changed to be like Jesus. As for the people to whom Jesus says "I never knew you", Matthew only describes them as CLAIMING to do things in Jesus name. I think they were impostors, and many today are in the same position. Peter You said,[size2]" To have foreknowledge means to know that something is going to happen before it does. " True.......but the sense in which Paul uses the word in Romans 8:29, isn't simply dealing with God's Omniscience ( God knowing everything ). The knowing Paul is referring to; has to do with God setting His love ( the word knew is linked with intimacy/ remember Adam knew his wife, and Fore= order before time ) those He set His love on, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Those He predestined He also called, these He also justified, and whom He justified He also glorified. None of this can be undone........but you imply it can. If the people in Matt. are impostors, why are the people in the Book of Hebrews, who fall away Christians ? No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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8/27/2008 9:22 pm |
Something else I'd like you to reconsider. In scripture we are told that God is Eternal and immutable, therefore He can never stop being God, and He is unchangeable in His nature and decrees. Jesus gives His followers Eternal ( unending ) Life. Consider these questions, and answers. 1. What value is the promise of eternal life, if it depends on what you do ? 2. When does eternal life begin ? 3. What did Christ die for ? 4. How do we obtain the perfection ( sinlessness ) which is necessary to enter Heaven ? Answers: 1. The promise would be worthless; because you ( in your flesh ) are destined to fail. 2. Eternal life begins ( for the believer ) the moment they believe. It cannot be altered or changed in any way. If so, Jesus couldn't really call it eternal life; nor promise the believer that they would never perish. 3. Christ died as the propitiation ( satisfaction ) for the sins of all believers. No one else can ever achieve that goal. 4. Through the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. Sin is no longer imputed ( or not counted against ) to the believer. In order for a Christian to lose his ( or her ) salvation, all of the above answers would have to be undone, and that can't happen............... unless of course; you can jump out. Put on your thinking cap man. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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8/28/2008 2:54 am |
Pete......if I recall correctly. You reject the doctrine of " Eternal security ", and you believe Christians can lose their salvation. If thats your position, then both Predestination and Foreknowledge, are meaningless and useless. You said,[size2]" To have foreknowledge means to know that something is going to happen before it does. " True.......but the sense in which Paul uses the word in Romans 8:29, isn't simply dealing with God's Omniscience ( God knowing everything ). The knowing Paul is referring to; has to do with God setting His love ( the word knew is linked with intimacy/ remember Adam knew his wife, and Fore= order before time ) those He set His love on, He predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Those He predestined He also called, these He also justified, and whom He justified He also glorified. None of this can be undone........but you imply it can. If the people in Matt. are impostors, why are the people in the Book of Hebrews, who fall away Christians ? Since the scripture in Romans does not say WHAT God knew, I guess I am also guilty of saying more than is there. Perhaps the correct interpretation is: "God knew in advance who would respond to the gospel AND NOT FALL AWAY, and it was his unchangeable decision that those people would become like Jesus". This would deal with your second point about the calling etc not being undone. I see no reason why the Matthew people cannot be impostors and the Hebrews people genuine Christians. Hebrews 6 v 4-6 does say they have: (i) been enlightened (ii) tasted the heavenly gift (iii) shared in the Holy Spirit (iv) tasted the goodness of the word of God (v) tasted...the powers of the coming age Can someone have done all 5 and not be a Christian? Thanks for your contribution. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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8/28/2008 3:16 am |
Something else I'd like you to reconsider. In scripture we are told that God is Eternal and immutable, therefore He can never stop being God, and He is unchangeable in His nature and decrees. Jesus gives His followers Eternal ( unending ) Life. Consider these questions, and answers. 1. What value is the promise of eternal life, if it depends on what you do ? 2. When does eternal life begin ? 3. What did Christ die for ? 4. How do we obtain the perfection ( sinlessness ) which is necessary to enter Heaven ? Answers: 1. The promise would be worthless; because you ( in your flesh ) are destined to fail. 2. Eternal life begins ( for the believer ) the moment they believe. It cannot be altered or changed in any way. If so, Jesus couldn't really call it eternal life; nor promise the believer that they would never perish. 3. Christ died as the propitiation ( satisfaction ) for the sins of all believers. No one else can ever achieve that goal. 4. Through the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. Sin is no longer imputed ( or not counted against ) to the believer. In order for a Christian to lose his ( or her ) salvation, all of the above answers would have to be undone, and that can't happen............... unless of course; you can jump out. Put on your thinking cap man. 2. According to Mark 10v30 eternal life begins "in the age to come". Yes I am sure you can quote scriptures that may suggest it begins when the believer begins to believe {which would imply the believer has to DO something  } but this is more along the lines of a "deposit" as per Ephesians 1v14. Remember the Hebrews 6 "fall away-ers" had shared the Holy Spirit but still fell away.3. Christ died for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD, not just believers {1 John 2v2, John 1v29, 1 Timothy 2v6}. But the whole world isn't going to be saved, is it? 4. According to 1 John 1v9 the believer is purified from all unrighteousness by confessing his sins. Someone who repeatedly and continually and deliberately sins without confessing {to God} his sins puts himself in the Hebrews 6 and indeed Hebrews 10 category of someone who is falling away. As for your answers being undone, I think I answered that in my answer to your previous post. I think it is dangerous and irresponsible to suggest that Christians cannot fall away because such belief is liable to make us complacent in our walk with God. This does NOT do away with the gospel of grace because we CANNOT follow the Lord by our own strength or on our own merits. BUT he does not force his will upon us and if we insist on shipwrecking our faith he will give us what we wish. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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8/28/2008 6:46 pm |
Posted by Noah: "I think it is dangerous and irresponsible to suggest that Christians cannot fall away because such belief is liable to make us complacent in our walk with God." God's word further warns about being lukewarm. I believe the word says He will spew them out of His mouth, i.e. He will reject them for salvation. Noah, thank you for sharing this post. My Christ, near and dear Who Leads on BigChurch For Women Only - Christ and the Submission Law God Bless the Believer - Cult or Church When You’re Tempted to Leave the Faith Finding the Road
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8/28/2008 8:29 pm |
There are several things you choose to misrepresent...... but the one you'll have the hardest time trying to sidestep, is the doctrine of ETERNAL REDEMPTION aka ETERNAL LIFE. When Jesus says, " I will give them eternal life and they will never perish ". He doesn't mean life only as long as you do good. If that were the case, then salvation is based upon works. No matter how small, its you doing something. Read my response to Aslan on the Book of Hebrews, where I mention that Christ accomplished ETERNAL REDEMPTION for those who believe. You only believe in a temporary redemption ( according to what you have said ), which is a valueless rejection of the one, finale, acceptable sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This is what the writer of the Book of Hebrews warns against..............not that a believer can fall away. As for when does ETERNAL LIFE begin; you must look to the clearer teaching found on this matter in the epistles, as John says: " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. "1 John 5:13 Is John contradicting Jesus' statement ? No. But He is clarifying it. According to John believers have ( present indicative mood ) ETERNAL LIFE, not a period of time; but rather as an unending relationship ( sharing God's quality of life ) hence unending. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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8/29/2008 3:07 am |
There are several things you choose to misrepresent...... but the one you'll have the hardest time trying to sidestep, is the doctrine of ETERNAL REDEMPTION aka ETERNAL LIFE. When Jesus says, " I will give them eternal life and they will never perish ". He doesn't mean life only as long as you do good. If that were the case, then salvation is based upon works. No matter how small, its you doing something. Read my response to Aslan on the Book of Hebrews, where I mention that Christ accomplished ETERNAL REDEMPTION for those who believe. You only believe in a temporary redemption ( according to what you have said ), which is a valueless rejection of the one, finale, acceptable sacrifice of Christ Jesus. This is what the writer of the Book of Hebrews warns against..............not that a believer can fall away. As for when does ETERNAL LIFE begin; you must look to the clearer teaching found on this matter in the epistles, as John says: " I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. "1 John 5:13 Is John contradicting Jesus' statement ? No. But He is clarifying it. According to John believers have ( present indicative mood ) ETERNAL LIFE, not a period of time; but rather as an unending relationship ( sharing God's quality of life ) hence unending. The verse you quote from 1 John is certainly giving assurance of eternal life to "you WHO BELIEVE". So again, if we stop believing, it would make sense to say we should no longer expect assurance of eternal life. But in fact I believe this verse demonstrates the perfect balance of God's word. On the one hand we have eternal life and God's assurances that he will see us through to the end. On the other hand we have warnings against falling away that we dare not ignore. BOTH are true and we need to hold them in our minds equally as being complementary truths not contradictions. Blessings Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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8/29/2008 5:12 am |
Pete........why do you always introduce the " But ", after saying salvation doesn't depend on you ? Here is what you said: " Of course our salvation doesn't depend on works or doing good. But...... " There you go again. You Always introduce that " But ". Why ? There is no " But ". Salvation doesn't depend on works or doing good....PERIOD!! The works Christians perform; are a product of the gift of salvation ( fruit of the Spirit ), not an addition to it. Heres what you sound like. I no Jesus paid for all of my sins, and has given me eternal life; but I have to do something. You aren't being consistent, you are contradicting your own beliefs. Stop with the " Buts ", and trust completely ( entirely ) on what Christ has done......not on what Pete must do. No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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8/29/2008 12:23 pm |
Amen Steve! Salvation is of the Lord...faith is from him... so where is your free choice, Peter? God gives faith and he gives repentance...your will is dependant ON HIS WILL....Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. The denial of unconditional election strikes at the heart of the doctrine of the grace of God. The grace of God is absolutely sovereign and every failure to recognize and appreciate the absolute sovereignty of God in His saving grace is an expression of the pride of the human heart. It rests upon the demand that God can deal differently with men in the matter of salvation only because they have made themselves to differ. In its ultimate elements it means that the determining factor in salvation is what man himself does, and that is just tantamount to saying that it is not God who determines the salvation of men, but men determine their own salvation; it is not God who saves but man saves himself. This is precisely the issue.Westminster Confession of Faith, Isaiah 42:8 " I am the Lord; that is my name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
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8/29/2008 12:27 pm |
I'll tell you what to do: Go to the "Main Blog Page" and where it says "SEARCH", type in "predestination". You can leave out the username. You will get three pages of posts that take up this subject in a way or another. Also the old Merlin's nick, managed to get 8 pages on this subject. Here, I'll link it to you: ---> Predestination OR Free-Will? As for me, I have commented enough on this subject. Salvation is AS MUCH predestinated AS it is OPEN to WHOEVER "will accept" (future) and "believe" in Jesus. (N.B.: Not those that just "say they "believe" and call Jesus Lord, but NEVER DO the will of the Father!") We actually got ALL that there is to know! Acknowledging what results the "original sin" has had on all humanity, will prove if man's FREE WILL is equal or up to the task! "Repentance" doesn't come from "outside" while Forgiveness primarily does! The "dynamics of Salvation" and whatever New Doctrines one will like to "coin", won't change at the end the Pure Doctrine of Christ! I will leave the rest to the vivid fantasy of the "Thinkers". __________ 
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8/31/2008 8:26 pm |
Great post, Peter! The question of "free will vs the sovereignty of God" is kind of a morass, but I'll jump in! LOL I believe, in our sin-fallen state which we are born in, we can reject God's gift of salvation, but we do not have the ability to accept God's gift of salvation. In our sin, we are spiritually dead, and only God can raise us from the dead. (As my pastor says, dead men can't raise themselves.) He doesn't have to save us; we justly deserve eternal punishment because of our sin. When He saves us, He works in us the will to do His will (for example, repent and be baptised, or do good works in thankfulness for His salvation and for His glory). Faith is a gift of God alone, and He does allow us to reject Him. When we're saved, God gets all the glory; and when we reject Him, it's all our own fault. These are my current thoughts at this point anyway; may the Lord bless me with His Wisdom as He renews my mind... PrettyLady
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8/31/2008 9:22 pm |
Great post, Peter! The question of "free will vs the sovereignty of God" is kind of a morass, but I'll jump in! LOL I believe, in our sin-fallen state which we are born in, we can reject God's gift of salvation, but we do not have the ability to accept God's gift of salvation. In our sin, we are spiritually dead, and only God can raise us from the dead. (As my pastor says, dead men can't raise themselves.) He doesn't have to save us; we justly deserve eternal punishment because of our sin. When He saves us, He works in us the will to do His will (for example, repent and be baptised, or do good works in thankfulness for His salvation and for His glory). Faith is a gift of God alone, and He does allow us to reject Him. When we're saved, God gets all the glory; and when we reject Him, it's all our own fault. These are my current thoughts at this point anyway; may the Lord bless me with His Wisdom as He renews my mind... PrettyLady BUT...........Jesus CAN!!!!! No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 1 Cor. 2: 7
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9/1/2008 2:43 am |
Well said PrettyLady..........dead men can't raise themselves, never have and never will. BUT...........Jesus CAN!!!!! "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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9/1/2008 1:02 pm |
I'm closing this post down now and making it "Read only". Thanks to everybody who contributed to the discussion. There will be more to follow later. Blessings Peter:) "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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