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 | Blogs > Noah235 > PLOUGHMAN'S LUNCH > JEREMIAH 29 V 11 |
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Jeremiah 29 v 11 says this: "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". These are words spoken by God, through the prophet Jeremiah, to "those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon" {see verse 4}. It is a promise to restore the Jews to the Promised Land, which he did and has done again in the 20th Century. However time after time after time I hear Christians interpret this as a promise to US, NOW, in the CHURCH. Can anyone explain to me why we are entitled to claim this promise as applying to us? {I've heard all about Replacement Theology and Dispensationalism, but please just give me an explanation backed up by scripture - with references if you can} Thanks. Peter  "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15 |
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 7/22/2008 1:37 pm |
Pete I'm going to copy and paste a blog I did not too long ago.... Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. This verse jumped out at me this morning. The God of Abraham is still the same God today. The promises made in the Old Testament still hold true to us today. It makes no difference if God was addressing the Israelites when He made promises......those promises are for us too, coz we are part of the seed of Abraham. He is the Alpha and Omega.....First and Last...Everlasting to Everlasting! Praise God  PenelopeCaptive of Hope
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7/22/2008 4:03 pm |
You are right, they arent for us today. They were written distictly for the people THEN. We as a people are under Blessing in the New Covenant. Heirs according to the promise means heirs to Christ. He is the Promise. 2nd Chronichles 7:14 means absolutely nothing to believers today unless you are involved in some whacko thing like Word of Faith.
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 7/22/2008 6:49 pm |
Very loose, off the cuff answer but........ Doesn't Paul refer to Christians as being 'as branches grafted in to the tree...' I think there is so much more depth and wealth within the promises in the Bible that we cannot fully comprehend the richness of our inheritance in Jesus. GBY, Pat.
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7/22/2008 7:58 pm |
I don't know if it's for us today, but it sure is a nice thought.  7Barack Obama - Is He Even Human?? Save a life, please adopt your next pet from a shelter, pound or rescue. "Iron Chef Bobby Flay, willing to sacrifice life and limb all in the name of flavour!". Alton Brown "Well you black out lane-lines one and three, and a four-lane highway becomes a two-lane comfort cruise". Kramer, "The Pothole" "If life gives you lemons, save the receipt". Stephen Colbert
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7/22/2008 8:39 pm |
Very loose, off the cuff answer but........ Doesn't Paul refer to Christians as being 'as branches grafted in to the tree...' I think there is so much more depth and wealth within the promises in the Bible that we cannot fully comprehend the richness of our inheritance in Jesus. GBY, Pat.
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7/22/2008 8:54 pm |
...because the Lords word endures for ever and is written on the tablets of our hearts and therefor as Jesus said not one dote nor iota of it will be abolished. It was a big part of the blessing of Abraham to prosper his people under the old covenant. under the New covenant Gods blessing to his people are given to his extended family too and they become heirs of the promise to Abraham. The prophesy definitely applies to Christians today and Israel yesterday, today, tomorrow and forever. So I don't know what you're talking about. Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever. 1 Peter 1:25 / Mathew 5:18 / Galatians 3:14 My Testimony - why I
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7/22/2008 10:28 pm |
Just a couple of quick thoughts: The Church does not replace Israel, but rather enters the blessings of Israel. We serve the true and living God, the God of Israel, who also happens to be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. We are grafted into Israel (Romans 11 ) - but also desire that they recognise that Jesus is their longed for Messiah, and be grafted back in to their own olive tree. In the specific text to which you refer: anyone with believing eyes may, without doing violence to the original context, see the generosity of God reaching out to themselves personally. CB
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7/22/2008 11:50 pm |
I'm with Noah and Tropical Man on this one. This verse is part of the prophecy of the 70 year Babylonian Captivity. What Jeremiah is saying (or reading to the Israelites) is a very specific prophecy that came true in the 6th century. Verse 4 specifically says 4 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, unto all that are carried away captives, whom I have caused to be carried away from Jerusalem unto Babylon; In verse 11 The Lord is telling the Israelites to rely on Him because he is going to deliver them. And that His prophecy is real as opposed to the false prophets and other frauds who were misleading the Jews at that time. Jeremiah spent most of his days prophesying about this very captivity and attack on Jerusalem but was ignored. This chapter shows The Lord's mercy. Even though the Jews did not repent, even though they ignored His prophets repeated warnings to repent from their evil ways, He was not going to leave them captive to Babylon. I actually prefer the KJV translation of the Textus Receptus here: 10 For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12 Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. It's not so much "prosperity" as it is peace and national freedom. And a desire for them to have a right relationship with The Lord. As Tropical Man said, the "promise" which we are now co-heirs of, via adoption, is salvation in Jesus Christ. --And Noah, while I do think there are many prophecies which refer to the modern creation of Israel as a nation, I don't think this is one of them. As I said above, I think this chapter pretty clearly refers to the captivity that took place at that time. Jeremiah was preaching about it constantly. And it was going to be for 70 years, as appointed by The Lord. We even see this captivity come to an end in Daniel. Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: Daniel, having studied The Word, was told by The Lord that the 70 year captivity was coming to an end. He was studying Jeremiah's prophecy and knew the Lord's Words had been fulfilled. And of course just reading on, we see that the next leader to come to power was Cyrus, who allowed the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. Thus the prophecy was fulfilled.
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7/22/2008 11:56 pm |
God had signally blessed the Jews, and they had been unfaithful to their trust; tho professing to be the people of God, they would have no place in the kingdom of heaven. They had been made the depository of sacred truth; they had had light far in advance of any other nation on the face of the earth, and yet by misappropriating the great gifts lent to them in trust, by dishonoring and misrepresenting God, by becoming self-righteous and self-important, they had lost the precious graces of the Spirit of God, and were wholly unfit for the heavenly courts. Thats why Jesus did things like cursing the Fig Tree. The same can happen to us. They had not honored God, therefore God could not honor them. They had counted other people as unworthy to associate with them. They had despised them, and fully believed that they themselves would go into heaven before others. But those whom they despised, who made a more faithful use of their privileges, would be accepted to God, and would enter heaven, to sit down with distinguished men who did not reject the world's Redeemer, or cast contempt upon the law of Jehovah. However, ANYONE who decides to accept God's call and do as He says can be saved... If a Jew or a Gentile wants salvation they can have it. Its just that the Jews as a people together wont have it. They forfeited their claim. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/23/2008 12:14 am |
Ironically, just minutes after reading this blog and writing my post, I read an article about the current "Inspiring Excellence" religious conference that is currently taking place in Illinois. John Avanzini spoke today as passed out a list of 7 "Bible promises." Well here they are: The list gave the following "seven anchors for these perilous times". Note that the word prosperity as he uses it is referring to material wealth. Spiritual wealth was never mentioned that night. 1. God has already made plans for your prosperity. Jeremiah 29:11 2. Everything you will need and want has already been provided for you by your great God. 2 Peter 1:3 3. God has already agiven you his best so there is no need to worry about him denying you anything else. Romans 8:32 4. God wants you to live with limitless supply. Judges 18:10 5. Your wealthy place is always on the other side of the perilous times you are facing. 6. It gives God great pleasure to prosper you in good times…in bad times..at all times. Psalms 35:27 7. In good times or in bad times, God is willing to make you rich. Proverbs 10:22 The very first point used this verse. Wow. I did not realize that Word Faith, "health and wealth" pastors were using this verse as some way of telling people The Lord is going to make them rich. What a blatant misuse of scripture. I see now that it is being taken out of context. (and if anyone wants to read the entire article just go to sliceoflaodicea --which is an excellent website).
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7/23/2008 3:00 am |
Thanks to everybody who has replied so far. There is plenty there for me to think about. I think what concerns me is the idea that this promise means we can expect prosperity {including material prosperity} and also expect to avoid problems, which goes directly against what Jesus said in John 15 & 16 {especially 16v33}. On the whole I agree with what Tropical Man and NJBeliever have written. But I hope there will still be other responses from other bloggers on this question. Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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7/23/2008 6:00 am |
The New Covenant Believer has the banquet table to sit down to. I had a dream one time. This one was of peace and I knew it was from the Lord. I was walking around this huge banquet table...and all I was doing was circling... circling. Then I heard this voice from behind in a warm and powerful, yet not threatening tone. The voice said "will you sit down? You are invited." I just knew this voice was Jesus, but I also knew I was not to look behind me. I could just feel that. Then he said "You can have all of these things, but not all of them will be good for you". He said, "Let me serve you, I will bring you what you need in your life now. Be still and I will serve you". Later I realized that I had never entered into my heritage as a believer. Never sat at the banquet table of the New Covenant. Since then I sit. I also wait for what he brings. See, just as children, we are not always prepared for our gifts or inheritance until the time is right. We need look no further than the Prodigal son for an example. Blessings Dennis
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7/23/2008 10:20 am |
Peter, I believe ALL the promises in the Word of God are for us. I read the entire Bible as God speaking to me, personally. All its principles, all its warning, all its promises are God speaking to me. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/23/2008 10:33 am |
Hey Peter read this whole thing, does it say anything to you? Not sure, my brain isnt able to comprehend the whole thing but I was just looking up the word "Promises" in the new testament on my desktop bible Romans 9: 1: I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2: That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5: Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 6: Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 9: For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. 10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) ; 12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25: As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 27: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 28: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 29: And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 30: What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31: But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32: Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33: As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/23/2008 12:02 pm |
Claudia where soes it say that we are to interpet it to mean ourselves? There are places it speaks directly to the saved and places it does not.
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7/23/2008 2:11 pm |
Hi Peter, Well i`m commentin but haven`t got a clue to the answer brother.Good luck with sortin through the info. God Bless, Wendy   Show me the way Sweet JESUS.Lead and i Will follow. 
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7/23/2008 2:18 pm |
Peter, I believe ALL the promises in the Word of God are for us. I read the entire Bible as God speaking to me, personally. All its principles, all its warning, all its promises are God speaking to me.
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7/23/2008 2:42 pm |
ROMANS 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. This verse tells us that something has changed. There is evidence to support that God's covenant with the Jews has been put on hold for a while because of disbelief and that we are under a different covenant,one not including all the promises made to the Jews.
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7/23/2008 4:59 pm |
Quoting Noah, "The interpretation of what it means is what I am talking about. If Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever, which of course I believe, then all this verse tells me is that next time I am taken captive to Babylon I can expect to be there for 70 years after which God will deliver me! Yes I'm being facetious but the point is that these 'verses' are so often ripped out of context and assumed to mean whatever we want them to mean." Well I think I clearly provided the scriptural basis to explain why what Jeremiah 29:11 is relevant to christians today. I'm not a big fan of replacement theology and I have my issues with the Catholic version of it because God loves his original keepers of the word still - Israel. I am of the theological camp that believes Gods Grace and Abrahamic promises are extended both to Jews and Christians who were once the gentile nations. Both are included through Jesus. It becomes one church and there is 1 church and that is the body of believers that believe in Jesus. Most Christian theological camps will be hard pressed to agree with this by scripture. The difference is that there is no need for circumcision or the sacrificial offerings of OT traditions. Jesus becomes the 1 and only sacrifice & the new circumcision is of the heart through Faith by both Jews and gentiles = 1 church, 1 body, 1 bride - the Bride of Christ. Therefor, what is said in Gods word yesterday is relevant today not by the scriptures themselves but by our Faith in the real living God who inspired them. The best way to find out if this is true or not is through communication with the Divine. I think if you re-read you New Testament you'll find lots of scripture that promises & predicts that Christians will experience and receive what is meant by the Jeremiah 29:11 passage. This is because we are heirs to the promise. This is also known as Covenant Theology & leaves replacement theology and dispensationalists shaking their heads in confusion sometimes. To those who don't agree... we'll, do you agree that God answers prayer? If you do then you must agree that you can ask for anything with Faith and expect to receive it? If you believe this also than must agree that you can pick and anything in Gods word Old Testament or New and decide i want that and ask for it? Then because you believe God answers prayer you must agree that the scripture will become relevant now because of prayer and because God is real or else why bother to pray and read the scripture especially the old testament. If you cannot agree that God can give you this now... then maybe you have to search your Faith and see if you still have some. this is not meant as an insult but a relevant answer to the theological Question. I for never had a problem with covenant theology but i do have a problem with replacement theology but, I do agree with some major aspects of dispensationalism. My Testimony - why I
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7/23/2008 7:05 pm |
Seabee God divorced Isreal. If Gods wod is always relevant than we need to have annimal sacrifices. Its in there. No, the Old imperfect covenant is dead. Prophecied in Jer 31 to die. Proclaimed dead in many places in the new testament. Usually quoted in Hebrews 8:13. So the law is dead. Its alive to the unsaved because they will be judged by it. The sabbath is gone because Jesus is our rest. Jer 31 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 1 Tim 1: 8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers 10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching Hebres 8:8 "BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH; 9 NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD. 10 "FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 11 "AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN, AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, `KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM. 12 "FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES, AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE." 13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. Gal 5:16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Hebrews 7:11 Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. 13 For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. 14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. 15 And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, 16 who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is attested of Him, "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness 19 (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. 20 And inasmuch as it was not without an oath 21 (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him, "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, `YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER' "); 22 so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant. 23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. 28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever. 2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
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7/23/2008 7:15 pm |
Quoting Noah, "The interpretation of what it means is what I am talking about. If Jesus is the same yesterday and today and forever, which of course I believe, then all this verse tells me is that next time I am taken captive to Babylon I can expect to be there for 70 years after which God will deliver me! Yes I'm being facetious but the point is that these 'verses' are so often ripped out of context and assumed to mean whatever we want them to mean." Well I think I clearly provided the scriptural basis to explain why what Jeremiah 29:11 is relevant to christians today. I'm not a big fan of replacement theology and I have my issues with the Catholic version of it because God loves his original keepers of the word still - Israel. I am of the theological camp that believes Gods Grace and Abrahamic promises are extended both to Jews and Christians who were once the gentile nations. Both are included through Jesus. It becomes one church and there is 1 church and that is the body of believers that believe in Jesus. Most Christian theological camps will be hard pressed to agree with this by scripture. The difference is that there is no need for circumcision or the sacrificial offerings of OT traditions. Jesus becomes the 1 and only sacrifice & the new circumcision is of the heart through Faith by both Jews and gentiles = 1 church, 1 body, 1 bride - the Bride of Christ. Therefor, what is said in Gods word yesterday is relevant today not by the scriptures themselves but by our Faith in the real living God who inspired them. The best way to find out if this is true or not is through communication with the Divine. I think if you re-read you New Testament you'll find lots of scripture that promises & predicts that Christians will experience and receive what is meant by the Jeremiah 29:11 passage. This is because we are heirs to the promise. This is also known as Covenant Theology & leaves replacement theology and dispensationalists shaking their heads in confusion sometimes. To those who don't agree... we'll, do you agree that God answers prayer? If you do then you must agree that you can ask for anything with Faith and expect to receive it? If you believe this also than must agree that you can pick and anything in Gods word Old Testament or New and decide i want that and ask for it? Then because you believe God answers prayer you must agree that the scripture will become relevant now because of prayer and because God is real or else why bother to pray and read the scripture especially the old testament. If you cannot agree that God can give you this now... then maybe you have to search your Faith and see if you still have some. this is not meant as an insult but a relevant answer to the theological Question. I for never had a problem with covenant theology but i do have a problem with replacement theology but, I do agree with some major aspects of dispensationalism. I think without looking at the rest of the verses in the chapter you are really not capturing the context or intention of what this is saying. Furthermore, this promise was conditional. The promise came after 70 years of desolation. So why is that those who agree with you think that the promise applies to the modern church but not the condition attached to it? It doesn't make sense.
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7/24/2008 1:07 am |
Ok, so how do you interpret that verse then? What is The Lord promising you? But just to sum up.... like the PRINCIPLES involved in all the promises apply to me, I believe... and they are usually CONDITIONAL. So if I were to read that passage and find that God was saying that if they RETURN to Him, and REPENT, etc... THEN God means no harm to them and only desires to give them a future and properity etc... I would see God as just BEING THAT WAY... in other words, THATS WHO GOD IS, you see? So He is that way to me, to the people back then, and to everyone else He created. And so if the promise is UNCONDITIONAL I would just apply it to myself. If it were CONDITIONAL I would try and study what it was God said I must do to be able to claim that promise and do it. I would guess God is saying that He has no ill intent toward us and that anything He is trying to get us to do it is for our own good. God when he tells us things isnt trying to harm us, but only help us. I never see "prosperity" in the scriptures as meaning TEMPORAL good, I always see it as SPIRITUAL good... Not prospering us moneywise as I guess some people would apply that scripture. Although when Solomon didnt ask for riches God gave them to him regardless. Sometimes God might do that and other times not, just depending on what tests and trials He might be putting you through or depending upon how he sees you might use the wealth, for selfish purposes or to help spread the Gospel. I hope this makes sense to you... I just view ALL the Bible promises as my own, as God speaking directly to me. In ALL the Bible, God is communicating with me about HIMSELF and about HIS CHARACTER. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/24/2008 1:08 am |
Claudia where soes it say that we are to interpet it to mean ourselves? There are places it speaks directly to the saved and places it does not. Just read what I said (above) to NJ Believer, that explains my view on this... Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/24/2008 1:12 am |
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us. 2 Corinthians 1:20. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/24/2008 1:17 am |
wait one more thing... then I wont "clog up Noahs blog" anymore... This is how I view the old and new covenant as far as the promises go... The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them;" but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Ezekiel 20:11; Leviticus 18:5; Deuteronomy 27:26. The "new covenant" was established upon "better promises"--the promise of forgiveness of sins, and of the grace of God to renew the heart, and bring it into harmony with the principles of God's law. That is the only thing about old and new covenant promises that changed. THE WAY that God renews us... but everything else about the promises are the same.... the way he forgives, the invitations He gives to us IF we do this and that, etc... (Hard to explain what I mean so I hope it makes sense to everyone). Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/24/2008 12:41 pm |
Quoting HolyMagi: "Most Christian theological camps will be hard pressed to agree with this by scripture" If your case cannot be backed up by scripture, then it must be wrong. If it can, please enlighten me. "I think if you re-read your New Testament you'll find lots of scripture that promises & predicts that Christians will experience and receive what is meant by the Jeremiah 29:11 passage" If that is the case then I will accept the promise because it is promised to Christians, not because it happens to agree with Jeremiah 29v11. Again, one or two specific examples would help. "Do you agree that God answers prayer? If you do then you must agree that you can ask for anything with Faith and expect to receive it? If you believe this also then you must agree that you can pick anything in Gods word Old Testament or New and decide I want that and ask for it?" What a strange viewpoint! I can certainly ask for anything but I should not expect to receive it unless I ask "in Jesus' name" i.e. in accordance with God's will. God always answers prayer but sometimes the answer is "No" or "Not yet". Peter "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth" 2 Timothy 2 v 15
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7/24/2008 2:28 pm |
Quoting HolyMagi: "Most Christian theological camps will be hard pressed to agree with this by scripture" If your case cannot be backed up by scripture, then it must be wrong. If it can, please enlighten me. "I think if you re-read your New Testament you'll find lots of scripture that promises & predicts that Christians will experience and receive what is meant by the Jeremiah 29:11 passage" If that is the case then I will accept the promise because it is promised to Christians, not because it happens to agree with Jeremiah 29v11. Again, one or two specific examples would help. "Do you agree that God answers prayer? If you do then you must agree that you can ask for anything with Faith and expect to receive it? If you believe this also then you must agree that you can pick anything in Gods word Old Testament or New and decide I want that and ask for it?" What a strange viewpoint! I can certainly ask for anything but I should not expect to receive it unless I ask "in Jesus' name" i.e. in accordance with God's will. God always answers prayer but sometimes the answer is "No" or "Not yet". Peter Of course, because they knew the Christian life is one that is founded on denial of self. It's not about what you want or think you need. It's about Glorifying God's Holy Name and believing on His Only Begotten Son. Our lives are lives of service to God and others. And our prayers are to be in accordance with The Lord's Will. And He will answer, with a yes or no, as He so Wills. Which is great, since His Will is perfect. An easy example was Paul asking Jesus for the satanic thorn in his flesh to be removed. He prayed several times. He begged. And what did Jesus say? "My Grace is suffice." Praise The Lord for giving me undeserved Grace! That's answered the greatest need in my entire life!
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7/24/2008 2:32 pm |
Heck, I dont knowwwwwwwwww... right now Im too lazy to go read the entire thing. But just to sum up.... like the PRINCIPLES involved in all the promises apply to me, I believe... and they are usually CONDITIONAL. So if I were to read that passage and find that God was saying that if they RETURN to Him, and REPENT, etc... THEN God means no harm to them and only desires to give them a future and properity etc... I would see God as just BEING THAT WAY... in other words, THATS WHO GOD IS, you see? So He is that way to me, to the people back then, and to everyone else He created. And so if the promise is UNCONDITIONAL I would just apply it to myself. If it were CONDITIONAL I would try and study what it was God said I must do to be able to claim that promise and do it. I would guess God is saying that He has no ill intent toward us and that anything He is trying to get us to do it is for our own good. God when he tells us things isnt trying to harm us, but only help us. I never see "prosperity" in the scriptures as meaning TEMPORAL good, I always see it as SPIRITUAL good... Not prospering us moneywise as I guess some people would apply that scripture. Although when Solomon didnt ask for riches God gave them to him regardless. Sometimes God might do that and other times not, just depending on what tests and trials He might be putting you through or depending upon how he sees you might use the wealth, for selfish purposes or to help spread the Gospel. I hope this makes sense to you... I just view ALL the Bible promises as my own, as God speaking directly to me. In ALL the Bible, God is communicating with me about HIMSELF and about HIS CHARACTER. But as I said, the condition was 70 years of desolation and captivity at the hands of the Babylonians. not to mention destruction of your home city and deaths. Are you going to endure that to claim your promise? Again, it makes no sense. That verse is being completely taken out of context and misused for a the false prosperity gospel. NOT to say you are a prosperity gospel person. I just mean it's being used by those preachers who are.
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7/24/2008 5:24 pm |
Quoting HolyMagi: "Most Christian theological camps will be hard pressed to agree with this by scripture" If your case cannot be backed up by scripture, then it must be wrong. If it can, please enlighten me. "I think if you re-read your New Testament you'll find lots of scripture that promises & predicts that Christians will experience and receive what is meant by the Jeremiah 29:11 passage" If that is the case then I will accept the promise because it is promised to Christians, not because it happens to agree with Jeremiah 29v11. Again, one or two specific examples would help. "Do you agree that God answers prayer? If you do then you must agree that you can ask for anything with Faith and expect to receive it? If you believe this also then you must agree that you can pick anything in Gods word Old Testament or New and decide I want that and ask for it?" What a strange viewpoint! I can certainly ask for anything but I should not expect to receive it unless I ask "in Jesus' name" i.e. in accordance with God's will. God always answers prayer but sometimes the answer is "No" or "Not yet". Peter But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Mathew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Galatians 3:14,16 & 3:28,29 14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 28 here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. What's the constant focus on time lines and dating with you any way? Why is that more important than the theological premise in question. We're dealing with a promise that is remarkably similar to many other promises made to Gods faithful (not unfaithful) in many other time lines through the Bible. I don't see how your contention rates. Sorry. You know what I hear coming from you is a lot of doubt and not Faith that the word of God is the will of God at all times and to all generations never passes away. Why would I need to give scripture when this premise of Sola Scriptura is so well known to believers who even lack basic understanding of theological concepts?! oh,so... Lets make a lot of points for doctrinal accuracy but no attempts to capture the essence of what is intended in the whole word of God and the Divine nature towards his people. As I said I'm no fan of replacement theology and largely against it but, I'm very sure the Old testament blessing prophesies pour over into the New Covenant according to the scriptures I provided. Those Galatians 3 scriptures also seem to refute replacement theology as well in vs. 28. by his word... God definitely intends to prosper us and I think believers and preachers who understand that the Old covenant is really just the New covenant concealed & the New covenant is the Old Covenant revealed in the Grace of Jesus are just following the word the way it was meant to be followed - with FAITH. As for the promise itself and scriptural support for it relating to the church today in the New Testament: I've got a problem myself with it but not the same one you do. I wonder is your source of Jeremiah 29:11 from NIV or ASV or what? I have to use a KJV right now my NIV is unavailable but, I prefer NIV over internet. Now my KJV says Jeremiah 29:11 this way... "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Your source says... "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". The only source I didn't check was NIV (unavailable right now) and I could find this version. So now i have a dilemma... I have to provide scripture that shows support for both Gods plans to prosper & provide peace & hope for the future... sheesh... anybody gonna pay me for this...? Philippians 4:19 (a popular one) my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus. Galatians 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Ephesians 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead Covenant theology doesn't claim prophesies for Israel always apply to the church. It does correctly claim promises & blessing even prophesied specifically to Israel can and do apply to the Church today because the Old covenant is poured over to the Church through the New Covenant. That is what i believe anyway and it will stay that way for me because there is a lot more than just scriptural support for it. But, result from faith and history repeats itself as the historians say. My Testimony - why I
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7/25/2008 1:34 am |
You didn't read it and you're making conclusive statements? Come on now... But as I said, the condition was 70 years of desolation and captivity at the hands of the Babylonians. not to mention destruction of your home city and deaths. Are you going to endure that to claim your promise? Again, it makes no sense. That verse is being completely taken out of context and misused for a the false prosperity gospel. NOT to say you are a prosperity gospel person. I just mean it's being used by those preachers who are. ...the condition was 70 years of desolation and captivity at the hands of the Babylonians Jeremiah 29 v 11 says this: "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". 10: For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11: For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12: Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13: And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14: And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. So heres the thing. God's people were continually turning back to Egypt, back to Babylon, wanting to go back to their old ways. Finally God says to them in effect "Alright then, since you like false worship so much, let me give it to you and grind your nose in it, and these people will rule over you for awhile... see how you like it THEN!" God tells them to SUBMIT to these rulers of Babylon. Daniel when he was in Babylon took the opportunity to demonstrate God's ways to them, asking them to allow him ot to eat the king's meat, etc.... Daniel did as God said, Daniel prayed his famous prayer and says "we have not harkened to your commandments or your prophets... forgive us Oh Lord, etc". Whenever God would do things like this to His people He did it to cause them GOOD and not HARM... He did it so they would REPENT of their wickedness, realize how foolish they had been and return to God once again. And you see, NJBeliver, in OUR OWN LIVES TODAY as Christians, sometimes we seek in effect to "go back to Egypt, Go back to Babylon" such as marrying an Unbeliever, participating in the ways of the World... whatever. And God will ALLOW us to do that for a time and even at times TRAP US IN to such situations so that we will get so sick of it we realize how awful the ways of the world are and the people of the world are, and WE WANT OUT... and when we repent that way this is what God says to US: Jeremiah 29 v 11 says this: "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". Because God was never doing those things to HARM US... now was He? He was doing those things to HELP US see straight and get our act together. And so, RIGHT NOW I can relate to this because I myself got myself into a situation because I was wanting to go a different route than the Bible told me to go... So God kinda grinds my nose into it... like when the people wanted to eat quail in the wilderness so God gives it to them and they die... But this thing... God is saying "Im not meaning to harm you at all, JUST REALIZE YOU WERE STUPID AND REPENT! You know? Thats what I mean. So these promises like this, I apply to myself NOW... Because why? Because that is what God is like! HES THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW, you see? Hes NEVER putting us through suffering and punishment to HARM US... Hes always trying to bring us to repentance. Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/25/2008 1:50 am |
I should explain a little further, you see, if God puts us in the fires of affliction, what happens, or what is INTENDED to have happen is that we repent and see His ways are right... Ps:119: 71: It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes. and so you see? God didnt throw them into Babylon to HURT THEM... and He allows us to be stuck in situations we have gotten ourselves into, for a time, till we learn the same thing... thus... Jeremiah 29 v 11 says this: "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". and so I can APPLY that promise to myself RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW, because I know that my God loves me and is allowing me to be in this situation without helping me out of it right away FOR A REASON... I dont have to sit here thinking God doesnt love me, or God doesnt hear me, or God has turned His back on me... even though I have done something stupid (yet again) See? Jn:14:15: If ye love me, keep my commandments. --Jesus.
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7/25/2008 4:35 am |
Okay I will try and explain further to you what I mean then... ...the condition was 70 years of desolation and captivity at the hands of the Babylonians Jeremiah 29 v 11 says this: "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". 10: For thus saith the LORD, That after seventy years be accomplished at Babylon I will visit you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place. 11: For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. 12: Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. 13: And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. 14: And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive. So heres the thing. God's people were continually turning back to Egypt, back to Babylon, wanting to go back to their old ways. Finally God says to them in effect "Alright then, since you like false worship so much, let me give it to you and grind your nose in it, and these people will rule over you for awhile... see how you like it THEN!" God tells them to SUBMIT to these rulers of Babylon. Daniel when he was in Babylon took the opportunity to demonstrate God's ways to them, asking them to allow him ot to eat the king's meat, etc.... Daniel did as God said, Daniel prayed his famous prayer and says "we have not harkened to your commandments or your prophets... forgive us Oh Lord, etc". Whenever God would do things like this to His people He did it to cause them GOOD and not HARM... He did it so they would REPENT of their wickedness, realize how foolish they had been and return to God once again. And you see, NJBeliver, in OUR OWN LIVES TODAY as Christians, sometimes we seek in effect to "go back to Egypt, Go back to Babylon" such as marrying an Unbeliever, participating in the ways of the World... whatever. And God will ALLOW us to do that for a time and even at times TRAP US IN to such situations so that we will get so sick of it we realize how awful the ways of the world are and the people of the world are, and WE WANT OUT... and when we repent that way this is what God says to US: Jeremiah 29 v 11 says this: "I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". Because God was never doing those things to HARM US... now was He? He was doing those things to HELP US see straight and get our act together. And so, RIGHT NOW I can relate to this because I myself got myself into a situation because I was wanting to go a different route than the Bible told me to go... So God kinda grinds my nose into it... like when the people wanted to eat quail in the wilderness so God gives it to them and they die... But this thing... God is saying "Im not meaning to harm you at all, JUST REALIZE YOU WERE STUPID AND REPENT! You know? Thats what I mean. So these promises like this, I apply to myself NOW... Because why? Because that is what God is like! HES THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND TOMORROW, you see? Hes NEVER putting us through suffering and punishment to HARM US... Hes always trying to bring us to repentance. but as I said, my contention is with people or pastors using that verse as some guarantee of Earthly, material wealth, which it's not. And it was never originally intended to mean that anyways. I'm not even really feeling that translation that says "prosper" because it's not giving the proper context. But certainly, your point in this post is very valid.
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7/26/2008 4:46 pm |
Noah235 replies on 7/23/2008 8:05 am: Thanks for that Pen. To be honest I'm not convinced that "heirs according to the promise" means the same thing as "heirs of all the promises" but I'll certainly count this as one contribution to a positive answer to my question. Peter No worries, Pete! But I am not budging on this one coz I know my God and I believe every word He says. Jer 29:11 is for everyone....His thoughts and His love are not just exclusive to His chosen people. Jesus came to make it so for all of us.  PenelopeCaptive of Hope
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7/26/2008 7:23 pm |
What I do find interesting is that when preachers talk about prosperity, they always have to quote the Old Testament, because The Lord was promising physical and material things to the Jews. In the New testament Jesus promises us tribulation, sacrifice and persecution in our Earthly lives if we follow Him. I wonder why they don't talk about those promises?!
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